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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:00 am 

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Athrawes wrote:
Grant, read what I posted above you. You mentioned Hitler first, thus, you fulfill Godwin.


I was doing the same thing you were doing - mentioning Godwin's law.

It is a ridiculous thing to say that calling it "Godwin's law" is somehow different from calling it "That internet thing about mentioning HITLER"

Anyway, whatever. Thanks for trying to derail the thread with internet meta-garbage we've all seen before. Now let's continue talking about Skyratings.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:05 am 

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If someone cares so much about their rating that they want an opt-out button, where they can no longer rate nor be rated, I'm fine with that. I'm just a little confused by the underlying logic. I guess it's "I care, but I wish I didn't, so make it go away"?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:07 am 
Sapphire Luminary

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Grant wrote:
Athrawes wrote:
Grant, read what I posted above you. You mentioned Hitler first, thus, you fulfill Godwin.


I was doing the same thing you were doing - mentioning Godwin's law.

It is a ridiculous thing to say that calling it "Godwin's law" is somehow different from calling it "That internet thing about mentioning HITLER"

Anyway, whatever. Thanks for trying to derail the thread with internet meta-garbage we've all seen before. Now let's continue talking about Skyratings.


Actually, no, you quite clearly seem to have some personal issue with me, so I don't think this discussion is going anywhere, and I'm ending it.

Vote for who you like, with what honor/infamy you think they like. Have a nice day :chatty:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:10 am 

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Kitteh wrote:
Actually, no, you quite clearly seem to have some personal issue with me, so I don't think this discussion is going anywhere, and I'm ending it.

Vote for who you like, with what honor/infamy you think they like. Have a nice day :chatty:


Will do!

I don't have any personal issue with you, but I felt somebody should point out why people are so wrong when they say that voting against a person is 'griefing.' I feel that I have been doing a good job at dismantling those claims, whether made by you or by others. If you think that you have a valid argument, you should put it in here, but don't be surprised if it's met with some criticism.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:13 am 
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Fenriq wrote:
Woohoo! We have Godwin! Well done, Grant. Your prize is this lovely basket of hyperbole.
Thank you good sir! That was hilarious. Though I would have preferred my drink to have not exited through my nose. :remygrin:

In an uncompetitive, completely honest world, the honor/infamy rankings are brilliant. They'd be the perfect way to judge how valuable a player is to the community. Sadly this will never be the case, so it just becomes another vector for trolls and competition. Meaning that you (as you do with any other potentially competitive aspect of the game) get complaints and abuse of the system. There's no way to fix this, so you either have to put up with it or remove it entirely. I'd go for the former and hope that there are enough decent people in the playerbase to manage to get the system half working.

Luckily, it still seems to be working in the high end on the Honor board (Infamy, I'm not so sure about, you'd need to ask someone else). I know that the majority of those people deserve to be there ('cept maybe Islo >.> <.<). I'd assume this is due the general high quality of the playerbase.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:25 am 

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Kitteh wrote:
Actually, no, you quite clearly seem to have some personal issue with me, so I don't think this discussion is going anywhere, and I'm ending it.

I have a personal issue with you. Everytime you leave a comment, I swoon just a little bit more.

Sinshlad wrote:
Thank you good sir! That was hilarious. Though I would have preferred my drink to have not exited through my nose.

Glad to be of service. Have I mentioned my keyboard cleaning service?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:40 am 
Dev Eyepatch

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Grant wrote:
You know what the definition of ridiculous is? Hinging your enjoyment of the game on the ratings you get.

Finding a modicum of enjoyment in a ranking system like honor / infamy is no more ridiculous than finding a modicum of enjoyment in a ranking system like fame, flight time, fortune, dailies or inf.

In fact, for someone who {static} bent on calling people who care about the honor / infamy list 'ridiculous' - you do seem to care a whole freaking lot about the honor / infamy list.

Grant wrote:
So what about this: Let's say me and my wing-mates want to get on the honor leaderboard. We designate one of our members as our contender, and all vote for them once per day. What can we do with our other vote to help them get ahead? We can vote down the people who are currently on the leaderboard.


The net result of that being that the person you are trying to vote UP is getting one less UP vote, and you are only voting ONE person down. More effective would be giving the person you are trying to vote UP both votes, which lets them catch up to More people quicker, than just One. But that's just basic math.

Grant wrote:
That's not griefing - that's just competition. Why is it griefing to give infamy votes to Kitteh, but not griefing when I give infamy votes to anybody else? None of the things you are saying are consistent.

If you don't think that raters should be able to rate in a way that the ratee does not want, then there's no reason to involve more than one person in that exchange. Just let people rate themselves, and only themselves.


I've given the definition of griefing. Perhaps, through some twist of logic, you feel you are justified in your explanations. Fair enough. But don't take down others with it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:53 am 

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Sadistica wrote:
Finding a modicum of enjoyment in a ranking system like honor / infamy is no more ridiculous than finding a modicum of enjoyment in a ranking system like fame, flight time, fortune, dailies or inf.

In fact, for someone who {static} bent on calling people who care about the honor / infamy list 'ridiculous' - you do seem to care a whole freaking lot about the honor / infamy list.


The point is that other people are taking their enjoyment from competition, and she is taking her enjoyment from being at the top and not having to compete. She is essentially saying that she is not enjoying herself if she is not winning. That doesn't make competition into griefing. That makes her a butt-hurt poor sport.

Sadistica wrote:
The net result of that being that the person you are trying to vote UP is getting one less UP vote, and you are only voting ONE person down. More effective would be giving the person you are trying to vote UP both votes, which lets them catch up to More people quicker, than just One. But that's just basic math.


I already addressed this, but here it is again.

1. I thought that you are only allowed to vote for a person once per day. Surely that second vote should be used to further your goal?
2. Even if it doesn't make sense for a single person to act this way, it makes a lot of sense as a group. Maybe I can't convince a lot of other people to vote for my candidate - but we can still all agree to knock the current favorite off the top, making room for somebody else.
3. Even if it's less effective, that doesn't make it griefing. Those are two completely separate issues.

Sadistica wrote:
I've given the definition of griefing.


It doesn't apply. You are assuming that the reason I would vote against Kitteh is because I want to upset her. I am only voting against her because she is at the top of the leaderboard. "Twist of logic," indeed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:57 am 
Dev Eyepatch

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Actually, Kitteh isn't at the top of the fame board.

Phil is.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:11 pm 

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I meant top as in 'upper part'


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:18 pm 
Dev Eyepatch

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And your one vote per day per person is going to accomplish .. what ?

Besides, you mentioned Kitteh by name, as a target. Not Phil, or Remley Bishop, or Burrito Loco - no, Kitteh.

Your strategy is based on a wrong assumption, is biblically less effective than the obvious alternative, consciously and willingly annoying people by giving them something they don't want, and in defense of some mystical non-existant 'other person' that you are banding together with a group to vote up. You know, 'if you wanted to'.

And you expect us to all go "oh, yeah, that's a great idea."

.... Right.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:35 pm 
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congratulations, this thread is the one and only time I've approved of Axel meme-dumping as a contribution. Historic.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:07 pm 

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Sadistica wrote:
And your one vote per day per person is going to accomplish .. what ?

Besides, you mentioned Kitteh by name, as a target. Not Phil, or Remley Bishop, or Burrito Loco - no, Kitteh.

Your strategy is based on a wrong assumption, is biblically less effective than the obvious alternative, consciously and willingly annoying people by giving them something they don't want, and in defense of some mystical non-existant 'other person' that you are banding together with a group to vote up. You know, 'if you wanted to'.

And you expect us to all go "oh, yeah, that's a great idea."

.... Right.


I support voting down all the people at the top (including you!). I don't know why you didn't think that that was the case.

And it's not less effective. I believe it is, potentially, the most effective strategy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:14 pm 

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Don't feed the trolls.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:56 pm 
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Fenriq wrote:
Kitteh wrote:
Actually, no, you quite clearly seem to have some personal issue with me, so I don't think this discussion is going anywhere, and I'm ending it.

I have a personal issue with you. Everytime you leave a comment, I swoon just a little bit more.


:cheeky:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:25 pm 

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The ratings system is the most trivial thing evar made in Skyrates. It should not be taken seriously whatsoever. When you guys fight over ratings you do not want, you are fighting over smiley stickers! The whole argument goes "Baaaaaaawwwww! I got a blue smiley sticker instead of a yellow one!"

I never took this nonsense seriously and I knew that I would get lulz from it the instant it was announced.

Not giving somone the "right" smiley sticker is not griefing either. Not even close. Griefers play a game solely for the purpose to piss other people off. They totally ignore the game objectives. I will bet over 9000 to one that the people giving "wrong" smiley stickers also play the game for the objectives. Smiley stickers are not the same thing as the Patriotic Nigras spamming the place with images and stuff while not playing for any of the game objectives.

Getting the "wrong" smiley sticker is not the same thing as being flamed, harassed, etc. Stop treating it like such a thing, people.

The problem is not the ratings system. The problem is the people taking it way too seriously. The whole {static} thing is trivial as {static}, and the people that take it too seriously need to go out and get lives. There is more to life than the Internet, particularly the most worthless and trivial elements of the Internet. If the Internet is all you have, you have problems!

There is already too much drama without the ratings. We don't need anymore of it. People should grow up and stop caring about smiley stickers.

Those of us tired of this crap should just randomly pick people to send to the tops of the list just to show how utterly trivial the thing is.

Quote:
Grant, read what I posted above you. You mentioned Hitler first, thus, you fulfill Godwin.


Grant wasn't comparing anyone to Hitler. He was just stating that Kitteh was putting forth a lot of hyperbole.

I don't know this Grant person, but he/she seems to be one of the most sober Skyrates evar!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:51 pm 

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I agree with that minus the many 4chon references.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:30 pm 

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The ranking system needs to be removed, and the stuff like the apparent title text you get after enough voting moved to the in-the-future profile pages thing Phil was talking about on chat earlier.

When I saw the Honor/Infamy system at first, it seemed to be a neat idea - people play out Honorable and Infamous characters, and it fit with the ethos of the whole thing. But it quickly became about the Rankings entirely. Which is silly, because if anyone plays for ranking, then they'll quickly out-gain anyone playing to be actually Honorable / Infamous, and the ranking will just fall to be a strategic voting contest for one of two indistinguishable sides. While proceeding to annoy everyone that's not trying to be ranked in it, and making it easier to annoy people in a poking-them-with-sticks manner.

I'm not really sure why the rankings are there at all.

With the rankings removed, some of this nonsense will go away. Of course, some of it will persist anyway, particularly where people react poorly to being poked with sticks, but it should be reduced.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:48 pm 
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Akachei wrote:
The ranking system needs to be removed, and the stuff like the apparent title text you get after enough voting moved to the in-the-future profile pages thing Phil was talking about on chat earlier.

When I saw the Honor/Infamy system at first, it seemed to be a neat idea - people play out Honorable and Infamous characters, and it fit with the ethos of the whole thing. But it quickly became about the Rankings entirely. Which is silly, because if anyone plays for ranking, then they'll quickly out-gain anyone playing to be actually Honorable / Infamous, and the ranking will just fall to be a strategic voting contest for one of two indistinguishable sides. While proceeding to annoy everyone that's not trying to be ranked in it, and making it easier to annoy people in a poking-them-with-sticks manner.

I'm not really sure why the rankings are there at all.

With the rankings removed, some of this nonsense will go away. Of course, some of it will persist anyway, particularly where people react poorly to being poked with sticks, but it should be reduced.


If it's not a game mechanic, I really don't see it as quite the RP element-type thing you need, more of a way to reward people that make you happy :/. Just 2 ratings for what kinda of IC value they want. A simple problem with that is someone giving a rating for someone being helpful/cool/ect might not know what the other person wants.

I honestly don't see this begging leading to the leaderboards. When I see people giving out/asking for ratings, they're typically more casual players that just want to make someone happy. I don't really care for vote begging, but I don't see it being very significant, either-I've seen people on both sides of the fence that are on the boards complain about getting a "wrong" rating, but quite often that's an oops on the rater's behalf.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:27 pm 

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I do not think that they will vote for me.


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