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 Post subject: The Coalition of the Colours
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:04 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:16 am
Posts: 801
Faction: Azure League

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To Lord Gilbert, Headmaster of Flight School,


We, the members of the Red, Blue, and Green Factions, view this “projectâ€

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Last edited by niklaas on Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:23 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:04 pm
Posts: 689
Location: Base of Operations
Faction: Flight School
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Perhaps this should be placed in Suggestions and Comments? It is, after all, a type of suggestion, and it's sure to be slightly more noticeable.

Either way, we await Gil's reply.

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 Post subject: Re: The Coalition of the Colours
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:46 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:47 am
Posts: 187
Location: The Great Satan
Faction: Flight School
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niklaas wrote:
We, the members of the Red, Blue, and Green Factions...



This Coalition Declaration in no way represents the overall sentiments of the faction members. You may be attempting to represent the factions as being their Representatives, but none of the faction members who signed are truly representative, as they were not elected by the factions as a whole.

Albeit, most faction members aren't socially active and, thereby, a sampling of votes and general consensus by socially-active players is the only mode of electing faction leaders.

Still, this declaration of war, as it is little less, against FS is a move by the leaders of the factions and, alongside, the small groups of dedicated followers behind him.

In short, this is a declaration of war by leaders of factions and their henchmen. It is little more.

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 Post subject: Re: The Coalition of the Colours
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:50 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:16 am
Posts: 801
Faction: Azure League

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Benefactor wrote:
niklaas wrote:
We, the members of the Red, Blue, and Green Factions...



This Coalition Declaration in no way represents the overall sentiments of the faction members. You may be attempting to represent the factions as being their Representatives, but none of the faction members who signed are truly representative, as they were not elected by the factions as a whole.

Albeit, most faction members aren't socially active and, thereby, a sampling of votes and general consensus by socially-active players is the only mode of electing faction leaders.

Still, this declaration of war, as it is little less, against FS is a move by the leaders of the factions and, alongside, the small groups of dedicated followers behind him.

In short, this is a declaration of war by leaders of factions and their henchmen. It is little more.


Each of us went to our factions forums and set up a voting system. Each of the factions had a majority vote in favor of the coalition. I'd say thats a pretty fair way to judge that in general each faction supports this. I invite anyone from a faction that feels misrepresented to voice their opinion, and we'll add it to the votes. In blue out of the 12 that voted (which is likely all of our influence runners) only 1 objected.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:53 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:47 am
Posts: 187
Location: The Great Satan
Faction: Flight School
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12 voted, eh? And Blue has around 120 members? And only the influence runners' voices are heard? See, that's why I don't believe this system of representation is justified. Why shouldn't the non-influence runners' voices be heard?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:56 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 60
Faction: Flight School
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If they wanted to be heard they would have voted. If you don't vote you can't complain.


Last edited by Malatoor on Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:58 am 
True Friend

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:46 am
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Location: Uurwerk at a Tea Party
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Lulz...benefactor you helped set this up, don't get mad because your name isn't on it. Only people who have proven themselves loyal to red, got to vote in ours......

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:59 am 
Combat Guru

Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:28 pm
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Faction: Azure League

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Malatoor wrote:
I they wanted to be heard they would have voted. If you don't vote you can't complain.


Well, you can but nobody has to listen. So yeah, it was up for long enough for most active members to see it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:12 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:16 am
Posts: 801
Faction: Azure League

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Malatoor wrote:
If they wanted to be heard they would have voted. If you don't vote you can't complain.


exactly

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:13 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:47 am
Posts: 187
Location: The Great Satan
Faction: Flight School
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I'm not mad about anything March. And as long as it was an open vote posted on the factional forums...then I would support the legitimacy of the Representatives.

BTW, there's no place to vote on my Faction's Forum...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:15 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:02 pm
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Faction: Flight School
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I may have an objection.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you would like the devs to combine R/G/B influence for the purpose of overcoming FS on Cidade, yes?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:30 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:04 pm
Posts: 689
Location: Base of Operations
Faction: Flight School
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Benefactor wrote:

BTW, there's no place to vote on my Faction's Forum...



http://badges.etc.cmu.edu/skyrates/foru ... php?t=2848

and

http://z4.invisionfree.com/The_Green_Re ... getnewpost

Albeit, these aren't official polls, but these are the two places you could object if you wanted to.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:30 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:04 pm
Posts: 285
Faction: Flight School
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Okay. If dissenters are requested to speak their piece, then let me be the first to say that I feel this is ludicrous. To call the semester project a "declaration of war" is hyperbolic propaganda. I have some issues with Flight School as well, but I'll get to them later.

Do Flight Schoolers have an advantage in running influence? Yes, they do. No one has disputed this. No one wants this. The leaders of the project themselves stated that wish to have their bid for influence removed from that of the recent graduates. They want to fight on a fair playing field as much as the rest of you. Just as how many of the Reds were among the most outspoken about tighter security in the recruitment process. (Alts and the prohibition thereof)

Is the advantage enough to start them on a higher ground? Yes, undoubtedly. But it does nothing to change the fact that the top influence earners managed to stage a great coup and come very close to sweeping the sky before the other factions rallied. For that effort, I congratulate them. They now have a fight on their hands, and I look forward to see where it's going. I might even join in.

To the Flight Schoolers, I'm disappointed in those of you who felt that it was necessary to send the message of "We're winning, you're sore losers, deal with it." That's not the proper way to engage in diplomacy, and I sincerely hope Sildar docks your grades for such unsportsmanlike conduct.

To the factioners who've been whining and making a big stink about it, I'm deeply disappointed. The best way to fight back is to take action and fight back, literally. Which, if you haven't already noticed, is already starting to really slow down the Flight School offensive. There's no need to ask Lord Gilbert to intercede and there's no need to collude in an attempt to exclude the students from doing what they are. Any action I take on behalf of the Red Faction will be done in the fairest, most up-front way I know how.

Some of you may feel I've proven that I hold little loyalty to the factions or to my own faction for my stance on this issue. To this, I simply say that nothing could be further from the truth. My goal for my faction is the same it has always been. To make the Red Faction into a powerful, respected, and trustworthy group that holds influence over all of Skytopia for generations to come. I seek to do this not through victory and right of conquest, but instead through seeking justice and standing up for the right when I see it needs a champion.

Let others who feel the same choose to follow in my path.

--Keyo

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:47 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:14 pm
Posts: 783
Location: Far away or close by. Depends, huh?
Faction: Flight School
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Mad Hatter wrote:
Benefactor wrote:

BTW, there's no place to vote on my Faction's Forum...



http://badges.etc.cmu.edu/skyrates/foru ... php?t=2848

and

http://z4.invisionfree.com/The_Green_Re ... getnewpost

Albeit, these aren't official polls, but these are the two places you could object if you wanted to.

Thanks for hitting that for me, Hatter. I was going to post the same thing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:48 am 
Senator

Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:11 am
Posts: 998
Faction: Crimson Armada

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Keyo wrote:
Okay. If dissenters are requested to speak their piece, then let me be the first to say that I feel this is ludicrous. To call the semester project a "declaration of war" is hyperbolic propaganda. I have some issues with Flight School as well, but I'll get to them later.


I disagree. Feel free to read their own terminology in their Flight School Press Release (http://badges.etc.cmu.edu/skyrates/foru ... php?t=2826). In the influence game, this is war. Using big words in a technical way doesn't hide their goals of conquering the Skylands.

Quote:
Do Flight Schoolers have an advantage in running influence? Yes, they do. No one has disputed this. No one wants this.


Quote:
Is the advantage enough to start them on a higher ground? Yes, undoubtedly.


This is *exactly* what we are getting at. FS has an unfair advantage that has definitely made a difference in the influence game. We would like a way to fight back against this unfair advantage and that is what we are asking the devs for.

That said, I know a lot of the FS Faculty have been putting in a lot of hard work, and I think they would want to prove themselves in a fair fight just as much as we'd like to fight them in a fair fight.

If the FS Faculty do agree that there are this large and unfair advantages they are recieving, then I feel *they* could be more vocal to the devs for these things to be changed and corrected.


Quote:
To the factioners who've been whining and making a big stink about it, I'm deeply disappointed. The best way to fight back it to take action and fight back.


We're also disappointed in you. You say the best way to fight back is to take action, but you have not. You have not lifted a finger to help the Red Faction defend itself, and yet here you are condemning us for "whining and making a big stink." We're trying to correct what we see as a great unfairness in the game, one you have admitted to also seeing above.

Again, all involved want a good, fair contest/fight and clearly "waiting until next round" isn't going to cut it.


Thorne

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:09 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:23 pm
Posts: 126
Faction: Flight School
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Sildar wrote:
I may have an objection.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you would like the devs to combine R/G/B influence for the purpose of overcoming FS on Cidade, yes?


I questioned this same thing as it seems to imply this but doesn't directly say it. In the blue forum the response was that they wanted the devs to do just that.

Otherwise this is horribly bad idea as it makes it even easier for flight school to win since the colors would essentially be fighting each other on a single skyland.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:20 pm 
Flying

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:45 pm
Posts: 1082
Location: Endor
Faction: Flight School
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Thorne wrote:
If the FS Faculty do agree that there are this large and unfair advantages they are recieving, then I feel *they* could be more vocal to the devs for these things to be changed and corrected.


I'm tempted to use the same quote against you I used earlier.

We've been among the most vocal players about a lot of the things that need changing in regards to FS. We've been doing so for months. If you want I can go find the relevant posts; I'm about to head out right now, so if so, it'll happen later.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:38 pm 
Senator

Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:11 am
Posts: 998
Faction: Crimson Armada

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alliisara wrote:
Thorne wrote:
If the FS Faculty do agree that there are this large and unfair advantages they are recieving, then I feel *they* could be more vocal to the devs for these things to be changed and corrected.


I'm tempted to use the same quote against you I used earlier.

We've been among the most vocal players about a lot of the things that need changing in regards to FS. We've been doing so for months. If you want I can go find the relevant posts; I'm about to head out right now, so if so, it'll happen later.


No, you don't need to find the relevant posts for me. I know you've been very vocal about Flight School and it's right to be a faction. I agree with you completely. I know you've been vocal in claiming Flight School DID NOT have large and unfair advantages, but I have yet to see you being vocal claiming that they DO, and that changes need to be made because of it. Exploiting an obviously out of whack system using unfair advantages not intentionally put into the game is far from being vocal about the need for changes to fix said out of whack system.

So which is it? Are you for the unfair advantages or do you want a fair fight where you can prove the superiority of FS?


Thorne

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:02 pm
Posts: 673
Faction: Flight School
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Ezin wrote:
Sildar wrote:
I may have an objection.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you would like the devs to combine R/G/B influence for the purpose of overcoming FS on Cidade, yes?


I questioned this same thing as it seems to imply this but doesn't directly say it. In the blue forum the response was that they wanted the devs to do just that.

Otherwise this is horribly bad idea as it makes it even easier for flight school to win since the colors would essentially be fighting each other on a single skyland.


If this is what the factions are asking for, it's an absurd request. First, this request has been made before, when Red was running its Unifications, and on the radio not the forums where it was summarily dismissed by the devs. Second, if the factions truly believe that FS has an unfair advantage then they should be advocating balance, not additional special treatment. If you think we're wrong, bear in mind that two wrongs don't make a right.

And Ezin, the various factions are never directly fighting against each other. Once faction's gain is not another faction's loss. Red, Green, and Blue are asking that their influence be combined into a grand total for the purpose of defeating Flight School, and this is a rather underhanded move.

I hope the devs give it the attention and consideration it merits: absolutely none.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:00 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:21 pm
Posts: 229
Location: Riding the slipstream
Faction: Azure League

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I said this on the radio and it bears repeating here:

This feels very much like the unification from last round. You have a bunch of people dedicating their days to accumulating influence and grinding at missions. They are not cheating, but they are disrespecting the spirit of the game. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

So, like last round this is:
1.) Perfectly legal
2.) A really bad idea

Some people are pissed because they are losing. But some people are frustrated because it feels pointless to compete against people who can drop 600,000 influence onto an island in under 24 hours. How do you compete with that without turning this into a WoW style grind?

Having said all that, I feel this is being blown out of proportion. It is one island in a sea of many. For #$@# sake people, it's not a huge thing.

And the flight school declaration of takeover was in extremely poor taste. I have to step back every once and a while and remind myself that this is a game, but things like that are pure gloating without reason. It left a bad taste in my mouth.

Finally, I'll repeat myself one more time on the subject of influence in general: the influence system is broken, not beyond repair, but definitely beyond, say the Bolo. I'd like to see a thread somewhere about improvements that can be made to the system instead of griping about people gaming it. I tried to get one going in suggestions and comments, it died. So I ask someone else to do this before there's enough bad blood in the water that we start losing players.

-M^4


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