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 Post subject: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:22 pm 
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Indeed. There's been some discussion within Blue regarding factional identity which has generated lots of much broader questions. One of them is what, exactly does it mean to raise your flag on a skyland?

How do you do it (in RP terms, of course)? Favors? Coercion? Hostile military action? I feel like at least two of those have been RP'd.

Once you've raised your flag how much influence do you exert? Are they a puppet vassal? Are they almost entirely independent? Maybe merely an agreement for trade or that they'll host a consulate? Some models that were tossed about are the Greek or Italian city states of old where there were a few powers and a bunch of smaller cities with rapidly shifting alliances of convenience.

What do y'all think? How have you imagined it working?

I think this is a very important question for RP. I mean if losing a flag means a firebombing campaign and door to door fighting that's very different from seeing import tariffs rise 8% because you aren't their favorite anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:08 am 
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I see it being very dependent on which faction we're talking about.

Blue I imagine to be an association by agreement. The barriers to entry and exit are low, as is the power of the "federal" Blue government. Islo is the capital by dint of prestige and tradition. What happens when a skyland joins Blue depends on which faction it's leaving, and what happens when it leaves is pretty much nothing--it means that the local government has declined to continue sending representatives to Islo, basically, and Islo says "welp, too bad you don't want to be part of our awesome smart group, jerks."

Green I figure to be an underhanded power grab. From the outside, it probably looks a lot like a skyland joining Blue, but to those privy, a big wad of cash and favors have passed under the table in exchange for the flight of the green flag. Green is mostly a trade alliance, and most "federal" Green laws concern trade and the freeness thereof. Leaving Green, however, means everyone beholden to Green in local government has to either change their minds (dangerous for them), or be removed (probably even more dangerous for them!). Skylands that flip out of green a lot probably have a local bully-boy head honcho that keeps strong-arming for better concessions/handouts/bribes from Eltsina. The pool on their survival rates probably makes up a good size gambling book on Cidade.

Red is a good old fashioned military state on the Roman model. Skylands are either conquered because they pissed Fuseli off, or beg to be let in under the protection of the Red military. With occupation come services and Red citizenship for enlistees in the military. Any skyland flipping in and out of Red is in a state of open rebellion and probably falls under the category of 'conquered because they pissed Fuseli off'. Solid red skylands would fall into the two categories of 'homeland' and 'province', depending on how long they've been part of the Armada/Empire.

Brown I would figure as something a bit like a near-modern Vatican. It controls its own holy see and exerts indirect control over skylands with highly religious populations through divine proclamations and careful use of excommunication. Fear for one's afterlife keeps the populations to keep their leaders in line with the Brown agenda, and is exerted by Brown's control of the priesthood in these areas.

Purple I haven't a dang clue.


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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:45 am 

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Purple means the whole population is on drugs. I mean, "The Shining One?" I rest my case. :remywicked:

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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:08 am 

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Walther wrote:
I see it being very dependent on which faction we're talking about. (...)

i like it! :remytasty:

Quote:
Brown I would figure as something a bit like a near-modern Vatican. It controls its own holy see and exerts indirect control over skylands with highly religious populations through divine proclamations and careful use of excommunication. Fear for one's afterlife keeps the populations to keep their leaders in line with the Brown agenda, and is exerted by Brown's control of the priesthood in these areas.

So falling out of Brown would be like "yeah, you know, Father, all this Magnus and afterlife and stuff is all nice, but the crops won't grow themselves and i need to sell them to make a living ... but i will come to church, sure, if i have the time and if i don't oversleep..."?
The population largely stops practicing the religion and goes off to do other things.


Joining Purple, i'd imagine, would mean sort of "aligning" the people with our Way. Nobody actively pledges allegiance or signs agreements, the government might just as well remain unchanged. But the influential Purple individuals lead by example and at some point pretty much everyone strives for perfection :razz:
and links with the hivemind :remywicked:
Which is why Reds hate us with a passion - they can have the skyland formally under control, but at the end of the day it's an island full of Purples and the "control" is only on paper. (RP-wise)
Leaving Purple is "snapping out of it". One by one, folks revert to their old ways.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:12 am 
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We make them all wear spandex and perform Gilbert and Sullivan for our amusement. That's only as governor though.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:15 am 
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I always envisioned it more like a shifting of allegiances based on a "what have you done for me lately" appreciation.

I think there is still RP wiggle room in that understanding for multiple modes of actually gaining the skyland's support. (Charity, Financial, Force) They might be grateful for the incoming faction providing some aspect that was missing in an ongoing pendulum of public mood. (Every system has winners and losers...maybe the winners get lax and the losers rally behind change?)

That missing aspect could cross faction lines but maybe as simple examples
Red brings security and a firm hand
Blue brings science and freedom
Green brings economic opportunity
Brown brings charity and education
Purple brings nirvana? haight ashbury?

The Mission options themselves seem to reflect a mix of some of these...combat, trade, service.


PS- This is precisely why the new INF decay is cool but the mood is confounding. If Blue controls a skyland and manages to expand its lead by doing even more, why should the mood shift against it. I guess the populace is obsessed with the concept of "the grass is always greener". Fraking Ingrates.

PPS- The tenuous connection between faction control and governorships is even harder. Now it is easier to gain and keep a governorship if your faction does NOT control the skyland?

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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:26 am 
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Walther wrote:
Brown I would figure as something a bit like a near-modern Vatican. It controls its own holy see and exerts indirect control over skylands with highly religious populations through divine proclamations and careful use of excommunication. Fear for one's afterlife keeps the populations to keep their leaders in line with the Brown agenda, and is exerted by Brown's control of the priesthood in these areas.


I know we have a branding problem - but this is not our general interpretation of the Order. Many of us see it having more aspects of Eastern religious orders rather than just Catholicism laid over skytopia.

But to meet you part way in the Vatican analogy -focus more on the service/charity and education parts than the fear and prosthelytize part.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:27 am 
Flirt

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I definitely imagine Skylands joining the Crimson Empire for one of three reasons:

1. They pissed Fuseli's government off. :mad:

2. They want the Empire's protection and support. :smile:

3. They are strong and see the value of an alliance with the Empire. :grin:

Likewise, I can see Skylands leaving for _ reasons.

1. They are tired of our rigid but fair control. :remymad:

2. They are strong and no longer want us around. :sad:

3. We're sick of having to protect them! :remygross:

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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:17 am 
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Quote:
Purple I haven't a dang clue.


And that's just how we like it. :remywicked:


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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:27 am 

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Aeauna wrote:
Quote:
Purple I haven't a dang clue.


And that's just how we like it. :remywicked:

We are very mysterious you have no idea of our grand machinations. NO IDEA.

Even WE have no idea of our grand machinations. That's how grand they are.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:19 am 
Senator

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I pretty much like Walther's post, but with one major caveat:

Why does it have to be only one method? I mean, sometimes it might be expedient to send in the Imperial 501st and the heavy guns to conquer a skyland. Sometimes, maybe it's better to grease some palms, promise economic ties, and do the job diplomatically. Perhaps still other times it is more like running in a political race where you curry the favor of important locals by making sure their goods and personal business get taken care of by your faction. Still other times, it's likely that Unhappy populaces run to us because they don't like how they are being governed.

Basically, I don't think Red always has to be "war, war, war." If somebody (say Hare) wants to take over Uurwerk via warfare and act like a dictator. Great. Let him RP it that way. If somebody else across the map takes A7, and they want to roleplay that they did it through political campaigning and promises to the people, then let them RP it that way.

I see no reason to stifle good stories, or limit how people wanna play.


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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:12 pm 
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I know when I held Valvia last year, I RPed it as Phe, who was born there, as being elected because of her work to curb the pirate activity in the area.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:48 pm 

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I'm tending to agree with Thorne and Phedre on this one. Taking over a skyland can mean completely different things from instance to instance. It depends on who's holding it in the first place, who is capturing it, and even what skyland it is. The taking of Tortuga from pirates would be different from being elected on Valvia, or conquering Uurwerk, and so on and so forth.


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 Post subject: Re: Raising your flag: what does it mean?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:41 pm 
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Personally, I'm fine with various methods exercised by different factions, it would make sense as a general rule.

But how strong is a tie once forged? How much sway does the "controlling" faction wield?

Gameplay wise, there is clearly little affection, however since there are definitely traditional strongholds beyond the capitals it may be reasonable to indicate differing levels of attachment for differing skylands.

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