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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:42 pm 
Sapphire Luminary

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Pen wrote:
I thought the game let you buy into debt for fuel?

It doesn't...however, before you could just fly off with no money or fuel (in 2.4)

And I still think needing to buy fuel/ammo and even armor is pretty silly/annoying. As a flat service that takes only 7 minutes it was okay, but the cost only made the very beginning slightly more intimidating (if you even bothered to notice) and doesn't add any sort of skill, strategy or fun to the game. I guess buying extra armor would make sense, but it would also be rather tedious to do it each and every time.

And the issue with AC is not a problem of regeneration, it's a problem of the AC mods.Almost any plane can cram them on with no real negative beyond cost, and they're invincible to 95% of common pirate's shots. They should take up a lot more hull slots to say the least, and being invincible to even heavy MGs should probably be a trade/heavy plane only thing. The AC and sil stuff makes sense until you can have a plane with very small sil, a tiny sprite, more than enough AC and tons of armor. That's the problem, not regen.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:06 pm 
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Amira Navaras wrote:
Chesterfield Taft wrote:
against proportional repairing

What if we met you halfway? Give planes three dots of condition. Each dot represents a host of debuffs. Let players repair one dot per service, removing the associated debuffs with each dot. The milestones are fixed but proportioned in thirds, now.


That's not halfway. That's like a sixteenth. Maybe. The issue he laid out was that you could micromanage your condition in obnoxious ways. This just makes the granularity larger. My solution was that you must always repair to 100% condition, just that if you chose to start from 50% it only took 50% as long as from 0%.

Kitteh, AC doesn't help, I'll give you that. But my high AC Barashiki tends to lose three or four armor per engagement (mainly because I'm lazy and I don't care about my armor any more). If I knew that I would get, at best, two armor back per fight that would limit me to a half dozen combats per leg as a lazy combatant. Obviously if I were serious about hunting/combat I would have to do better as a decent hunt/risky leg would give me many more than six combats.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:58 pm 
Sapphire Luminary

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I guess a modern (but not TOO difficult, I would think) approach to the difficulty issue would be to scale the combat's difficult to the pilot's performance, making adjustments like reducing damage given and increasing damage taken the better one does at combat. Plenty of different ways to go about that, but simply counting one's winning streak could be a way too I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:42 pm 

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Pilots can already scale their difficulty. Nobody has to hunt around Luz. Nobody has to fly risky everywhere. Those who don't, won't see rewards as great as those who do. But this is fair. Many games reward more points for playing at higher difficulty, as incentive for players to push their limits.

If we want to increase the ability for players to adjust their difficulty, there are ways in the current system to do that. -danger upgrades, for example. I'd personally like that.

Now, the armor system isn't really a contributing factor to fight difficulty. I feel that having infinite resources doesn't make combat necessarily easier, it instead completely changes the way we fly and fight in very negative ways. This system has become a bad thing in itself. It removes risk, it removes reward, it removes incentive to play with care and thought. It removes causality and consequences. There is no reason at all that I shouldn't airbrake in front of an oncoming swarm and hold space until they all disappear, because my actions are not rewarded. And that takes a lot of fun out of the game, and that's a bad thing. What do we get in return? Honestly, not much: individual combats are harder, due to reduced armor. Reloading adds a little difficulty, and a little frustration, and a lot of grind. Armor regen lets us continue fighting after a loss, and that is definitely good. But there are other methods to do that with fewer drawbacks, and they should be considered.

Burrito Loco wrote:
My solution was that you must always repair to 100% condition

Okay, I concede. That's probably what the devs want. But the problem with the current system is granularity, I think. Currently there is none, time is invariable. If condition were divided into thirds, then repair time could be made slightly more variable. So let's say a plane needs 300 minutes of service from 0%. You could take it in with two dots left, which always takes 100 minutes. Or you could wait a bit and repair with one, for a 200 minute service. And if you wait longer, until your plane is trashed, you come back to a full 300 minute service. Is this more amenable? Is it better or worse than than taking repair in minute increments, based on your percentage remaining?

Time and price could even be varied. The light repair for light wear, 67%-100% remaining, could be quick. 60 minutes, let's say. The medium repair for normal use could run 150 minutes. The full repair for neglected planes would cost the full 300, and once you're in that zone, the debuffs get bad and keep coming forever.

However it's done, I would prefer a three dot system to replace the percentile scale. Feels more 'realistic', because there's no way to tell at a glance how long there is until you start to suffer, only a feel for how long it's been since your last oil change. And I'd prefer to have set debuffs that occur only at those set points, because I hate getting ruined by an unlucky string of debuffs.

Just ideas. Hopefully some of them are fit to improve the game.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:08 am 
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I agreed with you on the scalable time, I merely suggested that it always needs to go to 100%.

And yes, knowing that any amount less than all my armor drastically changes the game. It means stacking flak and plowing through things is the fastest(best) way to go since the main advantage of LAs was that you could hit them first and virtually only penalty on flak was that you needed to get dangerously close.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:07 am 
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Having infinite ammo, is, for me, a very good thing. I can see having X ammo available per combat, I can see having to re-load during combats, but there should be no reason I run out of ammo one hour into a three hour flight unless I'm horridly, horridly wasteful.

Having limited ammo is fine, IF there are ways to replenish it. The previous times there was limited ammo in game, it was usually (i mean, invariably) too small a number, and needed major balancing. There seems to be, to me, the discussion of realism vs fun vs challenge. Infinite ammo is very arcade gamey. Limited ammo is more realistic and supposedly strategic. I think the people who do very well in combats are looking for limited ammo to increase the challenge, since they feel the AI doesn't provide much challenge. The people who don't fly t-bolts or play more casually and may not have as much combat experience don't want to be driven mad by combat. There is, I'm sure, a way to more or less meet the needs of.. well, the hardcore vs the casual. Toggle switches are one way. A better CI/combat tiering system might be one.

I am of two minds about the armor situation. Maybe each plane has X number of shield repairs, and mechanics can improve the X? again, balancing it all out might be hard. As it is... I'll take the infinite shields, especially in something like a Nova, over getting carrier or platform vaped and worrying for the next 100 fights.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:22 am 
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I don't even see the limited ammo as being strategic, once you hit the 0 ammo point you're just done. In FPS games limited ammo means you have to fall back on weaker weapons, or worst case use extremely risky melee attacks. in Skyrates it just means it's time to pack up and go home, you literally can't do anything but run or die, and it really doesn't inhibit your ability to run. And with limited ammo I always faced one of two situations: Run out of ammo about 1/5th of the way into the flight, or I had vastly more ammo than I could possibly use anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:55 am 

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The trick is making your ammunition last for your entire flight leg or hunt, and the fun comes from succeeding. In 2.4, most planes had enough ammunition to complete their longest possible safe leg, and arrive with plenty of ammo remaining. We should aim for giving all planes enough stocks to do this. Flying risky and hunting should be risky, actually, and it should demand that pilots either have the proper upgrades or the proper skill. It's risk for reward.

Limited ammo does not make combat more difficult, but it does make extended hunts and risky flights through the black more strategic. Those who don't use those features in the game shouldn't see any difference, pilots on normal routes should not run out. I've suggested that ammunition appear with armor in salvage, and with upcoming +ammo upgrades, it should be very reasonable for everyone to succeed at managing both of those game resources.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:13 am 
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Hm, kind of wondering what if a new salvage screen was added that gave you your choice of cargo the pirates had on them. They would be selected from trade goods that were in abundance on the closest skylands, thus combat skyrates who wanted to sell their trade goods would be given incentive to move somewhere else.

You could get like 5-10 boxes of cargo that way - or take a pick of mods or replacement armor or ammo.


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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:26 am 
Sapphire Luminary

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Amira Navaras wrote:
The trick is making your ammunition last for your entire flight leg or hunt, and the fun comes from succeeding. In 2.4, most planes had enough ammunition to complete their longest possible safe leg, and arrive with plenty of ammo remaining. We should aim for giving all planes enough stocks to do this. Flying risky and hunting should be risky, actually, and it should demand that pilots either have the proper upgrades or the proper skill. It's risk for reward.

Limited ammo does not make combat more difficult, but it does make extended hunts and risky flights through the black more strategic. Those who don't use those features in the game shouldn't see any difference, pilots on normal routes should not run out. I've suggested that ammunition appear with armor in salvage, and with upcoming +ammo upgrades, it should be very reasonable for everyone to succeed at managing both of those game resources.


At best this sounds like a make-your-own-challenge thing, like beating the game without the morphball or something pointless. You can already say 'Okay, I'll stop if I have to reload more than once in this fight,' I don't particularly see much fun it or any reason to focus a gameplay mechanic around it.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:18 am 

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It's more like beating the game without godmode, to be more accurate. :remywicked:

Lynx Adorienne wrote:
You could get like 5-10 boxes of cargo that way - or take a pick of mods or replacement armor or ammo.

That'd be awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:13 pm 
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Ahhh... the magazine, a required piece of kit for any serious higher tier combat craft. It didn't matter in my Avenger (you literally couldn't run out of weight allowance) but on other, smaller craft took a big piece out of your weight budget. Kitteh is largely correct, this isn't survival/horror and we have no fall back. I like salvaging ammo from pirates personally.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:19 pm 
G-Squiggler

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Ellington wrote:
#1 rename the Alpha islands to something else over the reset... ANYTHING else. A1-5 or so is fine... 6-99 i keep forgetting where they are and have to hurt my brain looking all over for them.

Ahem, name one of them India. Heck, naming the lot of 'em by the remaining available code words from some spelling alphabet would be an easy fix too.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:43 pm 
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Rename them after the killed carriers. We had to do something with the scrap after all


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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:20 pm 

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Pen wrote:
Rename them after the killed carriers. We had to do something with the scrap after all

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:45 pm 
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One of the downed carriers was named India right? I seem to remember that... :secret:

Also, didn't the fleeties pick up all of their toys after we got done smashing them?

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:43 am 
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Sure we did.

More fuel platforms!

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:30 pm 
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I vote that some of the Fuel platforms be converted captured Carriers.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:17 pm 
Sapphire Luminary

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Pen wrote:
Rename them after the killed carriers. We had to do something with the scrap after all


Alpha, Beta, Gamma, ect would make the most sense carriers or not really. 'Alpha' indicates it's part of a numbered set, it doesn't really need numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: My priorities for the next round
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Quite frankly, if anything gets changed, Alpha 17 is going to be Fort Bastion. That is all.

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