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 Post subject: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:37 pm 

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Continuing on from almost two years ago, and using several brilliant ideas from many players and devs, we have a complete schema for the plane statistics of a future round of Skyrates. It's shiny. These are the suggestions I've collected.

Design documents: http://vivisector.org/junk/SR/Newmod.xlsx and http://vivisector.org/junk/SR/SRComp3.xlsx

Google version: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0QUE#gid=0

Proposed gun arcs: http://imgur.com/a/qR9XP

  • Just as with the current set of planes, CKPH is largely locked. Archon's formula for CKPH versus line and tier is still in place. The CKPH value for any line at any tier has not changed, except for the blimps, which I've increased the old cargo bonus for. Unmodded trading/mission balance has not been affected.
  • Hybrids have been introduced. A Trade/Performance plane has CKPH between a Trade plane and Performance plane of its tier. A T/P hybrid like the Cetacea flies a slower than a pure Perf, but carries more cargo, has more armor, and has more range.
  • Tiers are paired: T0+1, T2+3, and so on. Range, crew, and price are similar for all planes in a pair. Even numbered tiers have the classic lines of Trade/Combat/Performance/Upgrade, odd numbered tiers have hybrids. Hybrids are generally better in some ways, and have an increased price that represents their superior CKPH. The intention here is to allow players more options: one can stick to the small Perfs (i.e. Loki, Nova) without being necessarily forced to buy the bulkier Perfs (Ceta, Mantis). Players can spend more time in lower tiered planes we like.
  • Prices have been generally increased. Veteran players were buying Ingers within 15 days of this round's start. I'm not really certain how much to increase the prices, but I think this suggestion is a good start.
  • Upgrades very much unbalance the current round, and make the Perf line the best traders. I've balanced the upgrade slots against CKPH, so that fully upgraded planes still have the same relative CKPH to other fully upgraded planes. It is pretty much impossible to give Performance planes more than 8 engine slots without breaking something. So I don't. 9 is the same as 10, except minus a slot for a fuel can or diversion plates.
  • I've assumed our current upgrades will remain, with two major suggestions: make the Gutted Cargo Hold cheaper and easier to find, and remove Mad Props. The combination of MP+LP in particular makes Performance craft incredibly good at missions/trading, and makes Performance craft incredibly annoying to fly with the stall and acceleration penalties.
  • Also, increase the penalties on the medium/large external cargo holds, to -15% and -25% max speed. This matches the external fuel tanks and keeps CKPH upgrades sane.
  • On that subject, I suggest that the Hi-Performance Wings be removed and replaced with something less extreme. 3 Wing, +3 maneuver, +1 armor or something interesting. Or just +10% acceleration, because +50% is insane.
  • Stall speed, with CV, is important in combat. So, Combat stall speed has gone down. Trade stall has gone up.
  • Armor Class has been added or boosted on a lot of planes. A minimum of 6AC feels good to me. Remember that small MGs are ridiculously critty, so it shouldn't be too difficult to shoot down a Nomad with any plane.
  • Very high acceleration makes planes feel light, makes the +accel upgrades worthless, makes G-accel worthless, takes some fun tactical thought out of combat, and feels strange in general. All current T9 planes cover their entire range in just over a second, including the Fisher and Shiki. I've made a set of targets for acceleration to hit: Performance planes should go from stall to max in 2-3 seconds, Combat in 3-4, trade in 4-5.
  • The minimum maneuver stat is now 3. Maneuver for large craft has been cut down near to this minimum. The Barashiki should no longer be a slow moving turret. I'm not really certain how high maneuver should go, or what the Inger should have--10? 14? More?
  • I've given some planes a special power, like very low stall or unusually high acceleration, wherever it looks appropriate. Just to keep things interesting.
  • Arcs have to be redone in many cases. I've made suggestions based on the 2.3 arc patterns and the art for the planes. I also suggest adding an XL size gun mount, mostly for the Vengeance/Avenger and Bismarck.

Eskay, Sluor and I have bounced this around long enough that we think it's finally good enough to show off. We want comments on all of this.* Personally, I most want to hear how people would go through the tiers in a real game, what planes would be most often skipped and which are just too good for progression. And most important, what parts of this are less fun than they currently are. My hope is to get this polished and have it implemented in some future round of the game.

*Well, most of it. The retiering part has been argued to death, and we think it's good enough. Swapping the Dauntless with the Mantis would please half of us, displease the other half, and wouldn't change much in the end anyway.

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Last edited by Amira Navaras on Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:19 pm 
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thanks for doing this. i have added "review it" to my list.


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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Agreed. This is slamdunk stuff, Amira Navaras, et al.
Nice work.


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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Will try to comment on progression...need to math out upgrades to do so and not sure when I will have time to. Looks really interesting though!

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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Short answer is that Eskay was kind enough to bring me back on-board with this particular endeavor and that I agree with much of the proposed work. The CKPH numbers all make sense with the current (2.6) upgrade system, and the general range trend is one I can get behind.

Arcs and a potentially different upgrade system are both things to discuss in the future. Between the two, I'd like to focus on arcs first, and there will be a separate topic up later which will address that.

Longer answer to follow at a later point.


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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Just off the top of my head, my one comment (Being an irredeemable Vengy jockey) is that I like the two guns on the Vengeance. Even if it needs to be a smaller arc, the nose gun lets you have say a lighter MG, along with your monster gun, which for me is a howie.

Although the introduction of the XL size made me grin. And just glancing over it I'm liking the numbers in general.

So, my two squigs.

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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:14 pm 
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I agree with....well, every bit of this, and I am NOT easily won over. This makes so much more sense than the current stats.

:blueflag: :blue:


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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:36 pm 

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Updated todayish. Don't worry, these are minor changes. Changes to prior suggestions:

  • Maneuver to rise among all the performance-like planes. This compensates for having their wing upgrade slots cut. Consider some of those maneuver upgrades to be built-in. Raise acceleration and reduce stall for the same reason.
  • On that subject, I suggest that the Hi-Performance Wings be removed and replaced with something less extreme. 3 Wing, +3 maneuver, +1 armor or something interesting. Or just +10% acceleration, because +50% is insane. (Mad Props are -30% acceleration. Getting rid of these will make perf planes so much more enjoyable.)
  • Also, increase the penalties on the medium/large external cargo holds, to -15% and -25% max speed. This matches the external fuel tanks and keeps CKPH upgrades sane. (This was already in my plans, and in Newmod, but apparently didn't make it into my original post. Oops.)
  • Havoc speed dropped, post-upgrades it was flying as fast as the Nova and carrying as much cargo. After everything is modded out, the speed of the influence planes should rise like Lancaster-Mantis-Spectre-Havoc-Nova-Inger, with cargo dropping along the way.
  • Boost to Dauntless/Mantis/Barracuda range and ammunition. With Steel Hull, Mantis should have the range of a stock Spectre. Just to make these planes a little more special, because the speed*cargo of any Upgrade plane is going to be lame.
  • Boost to Dauntless upgrades at 10/10/8/8, and Barracuda upgrades at 9/6/9/6, for the same reason: Upgrade planes have lame base stats. Vengeance at 6/6/6/6 and T-Bolt at 8/8/4/4, their modded CKPH were still behind where they should have been, these numbers will fix that.

I'm still looking for more tweaks, suggestions, threats, and general screaming. I'm seriously thinking of changing Upgrade progression to match that of Combat/Trade, instead of Performance/Combat as it is now. This would break the trend that Archon statted out, and I'm unsure if if we want to go there. And on the topic of upgrades, we have more ideas... oh, so many more ideas, but we do rely upon the devs to give an idea of what's possible, and upgrades are probably another topic in general.

Google Spreadsheet and XLSX updated.

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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:12 pm 

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I would like to request that WRH and SRH (Wood/Steel Reinforced Hull) be made available earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:17 pm 
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Just FYI, I can't access the downloadable version of the file.


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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:04 pm 

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Try http://vivisector.org/junk/SR/Newmod.xlsx and http://vivisector.org/junk/SR/SRComp3.xlsx for that data.

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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:19 am 
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<bump>

This may prove helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:36 pm 

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A gallery of gun arcs: http://imgur.com/a/qR9XP

The altered stats will be posted sometime later, after the guns & ammo situation has been agreed upon. The notes I've collected to make this: diagonal arcs are cool, asymmetrical arcs are cool, tailguns are cool, bulldozers are overpowered, very wide arcs (Bolo et al) are underpowered. Do comment!

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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:44 am 
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The XL arc size may be a bit ambitious at this time.
Other options?


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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:21 pm 

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They were borne of necessity in last year's critical overhaul. The problems were: the Bissy's broadside is a quaint legend rather than a legitimate concern. The Veng's concept of "giant flying cannon" is a common part shared with a dozen other planes. The Avenger's enormous gun and its smaller secondary are the same size part. The KF gets chewed up when it uses its diagonal tail guns. And a Dauntless at tier 8 just needs a little more punch than the basic large can provide. Given these problems we can look for solutions.

  • We can certainly concede all these problems and render all the XL arcs to L, and to compensate we can boost the survivability of these planes or something, to replace range and DPS with more time to loiter in enemy arcs. This is probably the least interesting way to do it, but certainly easiest.
  • We can add more gun arcs. This is how the Veng and Avenger were handled, by putting guns where there aren't any or boosting small guns where there are. The new problem is that gun scaling is odd: two S arcs do more damage than one L arc. The addition of more guns means we get our murderous bulldozers, like the Havoc/Seafire/Seahawk that vaporize players and enemies faster than a Tbolt. And this doesn't solve the problem of range, as with the KF.
  • It may be more possible to render the XL arcs as L arcs with a fourth mod slot. This could be really fun, though the pirates can't make use of these. Again if it's possible, a permanent hidden extended barrel mod on these arcs would suffice.
  • Some pirates, and HF in particular, have special gun arcs that are never replaced by any other type of gun. What happens if these special arcs are fitted to user planes? If the big Avenger gun was always a huge rapid fire low-pen multishot gun, and the Bissy turrets were always artillery, we'd certainly make them special. Though this would displease some players who prefer all flak or the like, it would remove the need to actually create XL MGs/flak/LAs/etc and update the store to hold them.
  • Something else???

One would have to look through the code, or have access to a design document, to know what's really possible.

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Angels' wings are icing over, McDonnell Douglas olive drab. They bear the names of our sweethearts, and the captain smiles, as we crash.


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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Amira Navaras wrote:
They were borne of necessity in last year's critical overhaul. The problems were: the Bissy's broadside is a quaint legend rather than a legitimate concern. The Veng's concept of "giant flying cannon" is a common part shared with a dozen other planes. The Avenger's enormous gun and its smaller secondary are the same size part. The KF gets chewed up when it uses its diagonal tail guns. And a Dauntless at tier 8 just needs a little more punch than the basic large can provide.
How about boosting their Firepower?
That's a stat that exists, appears a few times in Forum posts from long ago, but doesn't appear to be listed in the Google Doc linked above.


EDIT: I think we're still using Firepower.
For reference, the Proximity Mines and Lighthouse Mines have 100, Captain Remy has 15, the Bismarck has 10 and the Loki has 2.


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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:41 pm 

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Firepower is not a stat that does anything in the present game except confuse the autoresolver. It was last used in the combat game in 2.3, and has since been deprecated.

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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:44 pm 
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Calvin wrote:
EDIT: I think we're still using Firepower.
For reference, the Proximity Mines and Lighthouse Mines have 100, Captain Remy has 15, the Bismarck has 10 and the Loki has 2.
Amira Navaras wrote:
Firepower is not a stat that does anything in the present game except confuse the autoresolver. It was last used in the combat game in 2.3, and has since been deprecated.
Ah. More proof that I don't know what I'm doing.
:fear:


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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:42 pm 

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It happens to the best of us!

Yet the arc still wouldn't have looked any different. Players would just be surprised by a Veng that suddenly turned them into dust and echoes, probably not the best solution! My thinking is that if we can alter arcs at all, someone should throw a platform's arc on Remy's plane and see if it crashes the Gunsmith tab.

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 Post subject: Re: Plane rebalance, restat, and retiering
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:18 am 
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What's the most current version of the suggestions? The google spreadsheet?

-pl-


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