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 Post subject: Wings
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:40 pm 
Flight Master

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At the moment, wings are quite neglected. We are interested in improving them and wondering about what players are looking for.

First, a few questions answered:
Management for Wings would be improved (this would include creation, destruction, inviting/kicking people, and upping the maximum number).

So what should Wings be?

Are they okay just a social group for people to cluster together?

Should there be Wing missions?

Should Wings be one-faction only? As in, only for Red faction members?

If not, should Wing missions just be for personal influence?

Any thoughts/questions you all have, let's hear them.


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 Post subject: Re: Wings
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:10 pm 
Legend

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Lord Gilbert wrote:
only for Red faction members?


I'm fine with making all wings red only. j/k :razz:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:04 pm 

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I think there should be wing specific missions and it should be for wing influence. We could have a top wing inf board too.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:25 pm 

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I think each wing should have the choice of whether or not it is faction specific. It would be cool to have wing missions but I think the should be for personal influence only. OR you could have all the influence run by a wing go to there control over there home skyland. This way you could let wings compete against each other on skylands.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:50 pm 

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xent wrote:
I think each wing should have the choice of whether or not it is faction specific.


I echo this sentiment.

I also echo that there should be Wing-oriented missions. However, the problem with that comes in: Where does the influence go if a Wing is NOT Faction-only?
And where does Wing influence go? Is it based on the total amount of influence gained (per wing) or the portion of influence gained (per player)?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:00 pm 

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I think you would give each player their influence and have wings battle over islands. Similar to the current faction system but much more small scale.

Or you could allow wings to choose how to allocate their influence.(They could choose from a list with each of the factions and an option to leave it off the books completely.)

Xent


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:13 pm 

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Alright, here are some things I'd like to see improved in Wings:

1) First and foremost, make them MEAN something. :P Whether they will account for influence, or for some other reason, right now all they do is take up an otherwise empty space at the top of my radio.

2) Wings should be able to be disbanded. After all, sometimes ideas fail (like my Eltsina Squad).

3) There should be "Wing Captains," who have the power to accept, reject, and kick members from the Wing. The Wing Captain is the guy who makes the Wing, but the status should be transferable, in case the guy stops playing. (Or there could be an option to mutiny, in which players in the Wing vote for a new Wing Captain. That'd be cool, but would open a can of worms for bad feelings towards Wingmates. However, it also puts a pressure on the Wing Captain to do WELL.)

4) Devs should have some control over Wings, too. Sometimes things happen, and the Wing Captain goes AWOL, so no one gets in. If that's the case, players should be able to put in a request for a new Wing Captain.

5) A "disband" option should be available on the Wing Captains Logistics | Wings page. This deletes the Wing, and all players affiliated with it are now Wingless. If they don't like it, they can make another one under the same name, and a different Captain.

6) Make the "Wing Tab" smaller, and allow players to join more than one.


These are the things I, personally, would like to see improved. Right now, my Wing is only used by Bouchie and I to talk about Republic Official-stuff that we don't want eavesdroppers knowing about. I'd like to see my Wing be used for all Cabinet officials, but issues (as addressed above) prevent this otherwise-good-idea from being a viable option. >.<"

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:39 pm 
Flight Master

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xent wrote:
I think you would give each player their influence and have wings battle over islands. Similar to the current faction system but much more small scalet


The trouble with this, is imagine a faction with saaaay...Pierce, Edmund, Thorne, March Hare, Burrito Loco, Kyra, etc, the list goes on. If they control a skyland, a whole lot of people are left out. The nice part about a faction owning a skyland is that helps include about 1/3 of the total population of the game.

A question though. Right now, we have faction control, and governorships. Would an additional one of Wing Control be just too much? I kind of feel so, although it does allow someone to select at what level they choose to compete at.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:04 pm 

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Lord Gilbert wrote:
A question though. Right now, we have faction control, and governorships. Would an additional one of Wing Control be just too much? I kind of feel so, although it does allow someone to select at what level they choose to compete at.


Currently, influence's only purpose serves as a nice shiny trophy for a Faction to show off. Governorships' only purpose serves as to show who the main contributor to getting that trophy was.

Bearing that in mind, I think that having Wing Control on there somewhere wouldn't hurt too much. After all, it leaves room open for organization, and encourages players to act cooperatively, as well as making Wings somewhat worthwhile.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:16 pm 

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I'm just going to throw some ideas out there. I haven't considered balance or even the point, I'm just brainstorming.

What if Wings were a means of equalizing influence between it's members? Perhaps whenever any mission is completed by a wing member, a certian percentage is "wing influence". The wing would set this percentage when formed, as part of it's bylaws. Firstly we could track each wing's total influence score for bragging rights. That might be all that happens. The more influence you put into the wing, the less influence you have. Or maybe your personal influence total = personal influence+(wing influence/wing members). This would let high earners assist lower earners.

Maybe wing influence can be strait up GIVEN to other players. Say that one person was going for governer of a specific Island, his wingmates could help out nad put their infuence towards that one member's total.

Perhaps your wing's homeland is important. Maybe some of the influence you gain always counts as influence gained on that island.

Economic-wise, I think it might be feasable to have wings be able to share resources. If the next rounds implements hangers, then a wing might be able to share planes and crew and other things as well.

Oh, if there's a convoy feature, where members of wings can cue up flights together, and in combat would fight together, that would be cool.

If I think of more bad ideas, I'll share. Honestly, though, I think just adding total wing influence to the stats of wings, and having some wing-based events, would do a lot.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:22 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:32 pm
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Lord Gilbert wrote:
xent wrote:
I think you would give each player their influence and have wings battle over islands. Similar to the current faction system but much more small scalet


The trouble with this, is imagine a faction with saaaay...Pierce, Edmund, Thorne, March Hare, Burrito Loco, Kyra, etc, the list goes on. If they control a skyland, a whole lot of people are left out. The nice part about a faction owning a skyland is that helps include about 1/3 of the total population of the game.


This is all too true.

Another idea, would be having trophies for certain achievements. You could have ones for trading, combat and influence, and when the combined total of a factions points n one of those areas reaches a certain amount they get a certain trophy (you could have multiple trophies for each section). You could assign each trophy a value, and at the next month, year, or reset hand out trophies based on who has the most points.

This has similar problems to my previous idea but allow groups to focus on what they are good at(traders focus on trading, aces on combat...etc).


Xent


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:23 am 

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Mad Hatter wrote:
Currently, influence's only purpose serves as a nice shiny trophy for a Faction to show off. Governorships' only purpose serves as to show who the main contributor to getting that trophy was.


Not quite. Governorship is not directly or necessarily related to faction control.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:40 am 

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Wings can be very confusing for new players. An explanation of wings should be included in the tutorial, along with a more in-depth explanation in the tavern.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:03 pm 
Flight Master

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PapaFrita wrote:
Wings can be very confusing for new players. An explanation of wings should be included in the tutorial, along with a more in-depth explanation in the tavern.


Hmm...I disagree with them being in the tutorial. Or at the very least, the initial tutorial. That tutorial is intended to just get players used to the basics.

Information about them should exist somewhere however.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:02 pm 
Pirate Hat

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I'd like wings to be a different kind of competition from skylands - they should be competing against each other, not against factions. Do a weekly competition and track:

* Kills by a wing
* Profit by a wing
* Influence earned by a wing

Then award the top wing in each category a medal at the end of the week. This should get accumulated and displayed somewhere.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:23 am 
Developer

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that's a good point lynx.

here are some more ideas:

1. wings earn personal influence for all of their members only. if you want to take a governorship, you essentially need to get your wing to help you.

2. hangars (when implemented) are leased by an entire wing, and are available for all their members to use. you can't get into a wingmate's unoccupied plane, but you all get to split the (very high) weekly cost of the hangar and all get to use it. i like that this reinforces the "wings have a location" feeling, though it does make the center skylands more desireable.

3. a special new set of missions for wings which feature/require collaboration, either by moving LOTS of goods around, or requiring baton passing, or other mechanics. I've been noodling an idea for a meta-game i call "wingby" for a long time and want to build it.

4. what if you could join more than one wing? that was mentioned above, but i'd also been considering the consequences.

5. what if wings had a budget, and could offer you loans? what if you wanted to get that new ingersoll, but couldn't afford it. the wing would extend to you a loan, which would get you your plane, but then you couldn't buy another one until you paid off the loan in full. interest would be required to be steep so that this isn't essentially equivalent to player fund transfer.

one reason we're a little unsatisfied with factions as a system is that it seems to really assign a pretty strong identity to its members. (though obviously that's a good thing too.) we'd like to see faction sort of fade into the background, a bit like species, and start to emphasize a part of the game which will be friendlier, and less prone to accusations of unfairness. wings seem like they might be able to serve that purpose.

but we have to be careful--because wings seem to have this sense of approved membership and smaller size, there's more of a chance that they'd devolve into petty playground cliques. and every unhappiness which comes from perceived factional unfairness seems like it could be reproduced for wings as well. the only real difference is that factions stress combat, trade, speed, etc., whereas wings stress whatever you want.

also, we need to think of the new player; are factions and wings and governorships altogether too much to learn? is there a good, solid reason for each to have a strong presence in game?

how would we de-emphasize faction, anyway? it seems like we'd have to take something away from them as we add things to wings...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:23 am 

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Interesting thoughts, phil. Here's a crazier one: eliminate the current individual governorship system.

Taking a governorship would require help from your wing (perhaps the special wing missions you mentioned). This is also more logical for the game fiction, since the populace would have a greater attachment to a local organization. Adding wing influence on top of the current system would make things pretty complex. A system like this germ of an idea would help lower the importance of factions and make wings much more interesting in one fell swoop.

Wing budgets are very interesting idea, but I don't think it's possible to limit a loan system to the extent that players don't use it to transfer money around. Certainly this is not workable in the current system. Very rich players have little use for their income once they've achieved an endgame plane (T5 for many), and if they have the income to offer a loan of several hundred million G to a new player so that he can buy and kit an endgame plane then that new player won't have any reason to rush to pay back the loan. He already has the plane he ultimately wants, there is practically nothing else to spend money on. If hangars are implemented then a player could conceivably want multiple endgame planes, but there would still be a limit to how much money a player can spend. I don't think I need to outline how alts could be used to abuse loans. IMHO, any means of moving money from one character to another should be viewed as simple funds transfer; people will try to abuse/exploit/take advantage of the system.

This is not to say I don't think funds transfer is a great idea; I'd love to see it in the game. But I think it's a bit silly to complicate and obfuscate it in what will probably be vain attempts to prevent unintended use (read: abuse). If a loan system is the goal, then provide wing leaders with the tools to budget for the wing, loan G, and collect on those loans.

Oh, and I personally think joining multiple wings is a bad idea. Characters should be able to join and leave as they like, but only a single wing at a time.

Regarding hangars: one way to lower the desirability of core skylands is to provide a tow/delivery service when buying a new plane. If I want to buy a T1/2, and kit it to store at my hangar on Juliet...well, I'd be SOL since I can't get to Juliet.

EDIT: Wow, phil, check it out:Image
:smirk:
Can I get some upgrade love? :3

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:30 am 
Explorer

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Sildar wrote:
Wing budgets are very interesting idea, but I don't think it's possible to limit a loan system to the extent that players don't use it to transfer money around.


I agree with you there, but a system of wing-specific benefits could work without breaking game progression, especially if the shared pool included both cash and influence.

Some suggestions have included renting a private carrier for a week, so that your wingmates have an extra skyland to stop at. This could help newer pilots trade at skylands that they have the license for, but not quite enough range. It could also give more experienced pilots a platform to conduct high-risk hunts without always having to trek across Skytopia to Tortuga.

You could also pay cash and/or influence to be deputized at a skyland, giving your wingmates a larger number of patrols per stop.

These benefits, and others like them, could be measurable at all levels, but not game-breaking at any.

-c.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:37 am 

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Deyo wrote:
...a system of wing-specific benefits could work without breaking game progression, especially if the shared pool included both cash and influence.


Definitely. I was referring only to the loan system that phil floated. I'd love to see other ways to let wings benefit their members.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:39 am 
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Sildar wrote:
EDIT: Wow, phil, check it out:Image
:smirk:
Can I get some upgrade love? :3


Phil's leet-th post was in anchor's thread about missions. :)

-c.


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