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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:18 pm 

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phil wrote:

5. what if wings had a budget, and could offer you loans? what if you wanted to get that new ingersoll, but couldn't afford it. the wing would extend to you a loan, which would get you your plane, but then you couldn't buy another one until you paid off the loan in full. interest would be required to be steep so that this isn't essentially equivalent to player fund transfer.


I am against. While I am slightly disappointed in the lack of fund-transfer, I am all-too-well-aware of the potential abuses of such a system.
If I have to choose between seeing a good idea horribly abused or not seeing a good idea at all...
Well, it's a lot like That one story I read in Intro. to Philosophy.

Phil wrote:
one reason we're a little unsatisfied with factions as a system is that it seems to really assign a pretty strong identity to its members.

What's wrong with that?

Phil wrote:
(though obviously that's a good thing too.)

Exactly. :green:

Phil, the Faction Hater wrote:
we'd like to see faction sort of fade into the background, a bit like species, and start to emphasize a part of the game which will be friendlier, and less prone to accusations of unfairness. wings seem like they might be able to serve that purpose.


Such accusations will always exist, regardless of what system you use. Factions give players a sense of identity and cooperation, and while you have stated numerous times that you'd like to see them "fade into the background," I remain very staunch in that I'd much rather see them expanded upon. (I would very much like to see a topic made on Factions in the Developers Discussion forum)

If you get rid of factions, those accusations will begin to either form against players themselves ("How come Hare has more influence than I do? I think he has an unfair advantage on Uurwerk that lets him get better missions!" -- "Why is Burrito Loco the combat guru? I should get TWICE as many combats as he does, to be fair!" -- "I think the Devs are helping Tommy Chong be an amazing artist! I WANT TO BE AN AMAZING ARTIST TOO!!!!!"), against whatever you come to replace them with (say, Wings.), or just against other aspects of the game or players in general ("Combat-kitted planes make more money than trade-kitted planes. I WANT MORE MONEY!").

If I no longer have a Republic to serve, I will no longer have a game to play (RP-wise).

I am devoted to my Faction-- but for a good reason. It's fun. :)

Phil, the Faction Hater wrote:
but we have to be careful--because wings seem to have this sense of approved membership and smaller size, there's more of a chance that they'd devolve into petty playground cliques. and every unhappiness which comes from perceived factional unfairness seems like it could be reproduced for wings as well. the only real difference is that factions stress combat, trade, speed, etc., whereas wings stress whatever you want.


If memory serves, you've also stated that you're trying to gear away from the trade-combat-performance bit of Factions and "rebrand" the Factions. I'm happy with this-- just don't get rid of them.

Phil, the Faction Hater wrote:
also, we need to think of the new player; are factions and wings and governorships altogether too much to learn? is there a good, solid reason for each to have a strong presence in game?


Alright, things get complicated in the game. Are they too complicated?
Right now, the only complication is explaining that they're all there for flavor reasons. This seems to be a concept new players have trouble grappling with (the most common question being, "What are the ingame advantages?" and when we explain there are none the follow-up question nearly always being, "Then what's the point?").

It's always better to introduce something and then gradually build on the concept than to throw it all in at once. Perhaps "layers" of introduction would help?

As you spend more time on the game, new things become apparent to you. But by no means should we expect a new player to understand the world of Skyrates right off the bat.

Phil, the Faction Hater wrote:
how would we de-emphasize faction, anyway? it seems like we'd have to take something away from them as we add things to wings...


All the more reason not to get rid of them. :P

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Here's a thought:

* Add a new field, 'Favored Wing'
* Skylands add up the personal influence of each wing's members on that skyland
* The wing with the most personal influence becomes the 'Favored Wing' of that skyland

In RP terms, it means your wing is called first if there's trouble in the skies of that skyland. You might get better missions, or exclusive missions, at skylands which favor your wing.

Disadvantage is that it might be a case of 'rich get richer', there needs to be some kind of mechanism to make sure that wings can only really get favored status on one skyland at a time.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:59 pm 

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Groups of players tend to reach a certain max size before people don't know each other, and sense of membership is lost. 4 factions will eventually not scale as the game scales. Factions can still be around, but to keep sense of "group," a sink revolving around smaller groups, like wings, will be a must.

Collaborative missions sound like a lot of fun. What if the wing mission INF only counted to the wing's home skyland. Core skylands, while centralized, would have high competition. Skylands further out would be less convenient, but it would be easier to get your outlying wing to the top of the list. The Core ~the big city, outlying lands ~wild west.

Then there'd be overall wing rankings also to enable intra-skyland rivalries.

Wing mission: We've got a new ore mine, but we need a reliable distribution network. We'll give you an exclusive contract for $X per ore if your wing can move > Y units/day, and if you don't make it, you get nuthin'!

Wing mission: Oh noez, Pirates are organizing! We need your wing to shoot down 1000 pirates!

Wing mission: This secret machine has 4 parts, but we cannot allow them to be transported simultaneously because of the danger of more than one part falling into the wrong hands... Can your wing get these pieces there safely for us?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:24 pm
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And... I'm opposed to pretty much all of these ideas. I'm afraid my thoughts are a little jumbled, but I'll dump them out as best I can.

Wing based missions will cause me to go off and join the wing with the largest inf/day output. Even daily wing trophies or badges for most inf/day or kills/day would at the very least give me a strong impetus in that direction.

Indeed, most of these proposed changes to wings seem very hostile to newer players; I see no incentive for encouraging them to join a wing.

There are a few things I'd potentially be happy to share with many other players, including those outside my faction. To wit:
1. Information about the prices of goods at skylands I've visited (including infrared goods). I can imagine this being automatated, rather than the (very) occasional such exchange that takes place on faction chat.
2. More generally, access to my logs for the last day or two. (Although here I'm a little more wary about sharing top-sekrit influence data.)
3. Allowing other pilots to try out a fancy plane in my hypothetical hanger. Obviously, they shouldn't be allowed to profit much, if at all, during such a joy ride. Perhaps also: cap the number of hours/week one can spend in a barrowed plane; add a new skill prerequisite; require some fee for the loan.
4. Information about whether I'm logged in, or, preferably, when I last said something on chat.

To throw a few more Molotov cocktails out of the cockpit of my Mantis, how about completely eliminating wings, or relegating them to some purely web-based interface, for the purposes of RP. Instead, one could have a larger, but individualized) list of "friends". Given a larger list of 20-30 skyrates, I'd be happier to share with newer players, or to radio Hare and ask him to watch my back on a joint Red-Blue mission.

I guess I'm pushing the following worthy, if difficult to achieve, goals for wings or some replacement:
1. Not accumulating even more strength in the hands of a few.
2. Being welcoming to new players.
3. Cutting across factional loyalties.

phil wrote:
1. wings earn personal influence for all of their members only. if you want to take a governorship, you essentially need to get your wing to help you.

In my opinion, this is basically guaranteed to lead to select groups of top inf runners, whose wings put up 500k+ inf a day.

phil wrote:
2. hangars (when implemented) are leased by an entire wing, and are available for all their members to use. you can't get into a wingmate's unoccupied plane, but you all get to split the (very high) weekly cost of the hangar and all get to use it. i like that this reinforces the "wings have a location" feeling, though it does make the center skylands more desireable.

I like this better, but now I think it encourages wings of ultra-wealthy skyrates to band together.

phil wrote:
3. a special new set of missions for wings which feature/require collaboration, either by moving LOTS of goods around, or requiring baton passing, or other mechanics. I've been noodling an idea for a meta-game i call "wingby" for a long time and want to build it.

Same problems as in 1.

phil wrote:
4. what if you could join more than one wing? that was mentioned above, but i'd also been considering the consequences.

Doesn't seem to play very nice with a lot of the other suggestions. Also, seems to devalue the concept of the wing.

phil wrote:
5. what if wings had a budget, and could offer you loans? what if you wanted to get that new ingersoll, but couldn't afford it. the wing would extend to you a loan, which would get you your plane, but then you couldn't buy another one until you paid off the loan in full. interest would be required to be steep so that this isn't essentially equivalent to player fund transfer.

I don't really see any reason to tie this to a wing rather than some sort of central bank. The only consequence I see of making it wing-based that others in your wing who want a loan when you've taken all the money from the wing pot will become quite irate.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:07 am 

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Ale: We shouldn't be paralyzed by power and politics - the goal is to get more fun from social interaction, and wings provide a great opportunity for just that. What's the saying, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater?

INF only has the value you attach to it in the current system. If you're a newb but you demand trophies, "up and coming" wings can be awarded for biggest growth over a period. INF could be lost, too, say, under a tweaked system allowing old guard to be overthrown by the young guns. To limit unwanted membership in your wing, wings could vote in or vote out members.

I do like your idea about a system for sharing trade pricing intelligence a lot. I could seem be some sort of feed which updates with absolute buy/sell pricing (vs. opposed to the color bar system) when your wingmates land. Maybe it could replace the color bar system....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:55 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:20 am
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Let Wings specialize, perhaps limiting the effects of their Specialty to the "home base" in some ways.

Attack Wing: Members of this Wing get an advantage when attempting to gain influence at another factions Skylands.

Defense Wing: Members of this Wing are devoted to defending their home base from attack. They get a bonus of some sort when defending.

Trading Wing: Members of this Wing have a favored trade status on their home skyland. Buying and selling is better for them there.

Hot Wings: Members of this Wing get an extra-large chat window of their very own for flaming in. (OK, yes, I am a bad man for even joking about this.)

A Specialty should either be totally fixed (you get it upon Wing creation and that's it) or changed only at high cost. From a development standpoint, I would do the first, see how it works, then add changing later if it seems warranted. I mean, they could always disband the wing and start anew if they feel that strongly about it.

Other specialties could be possible, I haven't been around long enough to say. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:12 am 

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So what should Wings be?
more than a chat tab.

Are they okay just a social group for people to cluster together?
no, what's the (in-game) point of that?

Should there be Wing missions?
now see, that would be cool...if the wing missions were more than special text.

Should Wings be one-faction only?
no, but that should be an option.

If not, should Wing missions just be for personal influence?
no, personal influence doesn't really make much sense to me. who cares? (i know, i know lots of skyrates do. but lots don't.) what does personal influence do for me in-game? no really, does it make my combat more difficult or my missions payout more?

Quote:
also, we need to think of the new player; are factions and wings and governorships altogether too much to learn? is there a good, solid reason for each to have a strong presence in game?

i'm pretty new and the hardest thing for me to figure out about factions, wings, and governorships was "what's the point?" what is the in-game benefit? access to a forum? a chat tab? my name goes on a list?...oh. ok.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:34 am 

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If people are concerned about a super wing of influence runners, then it makes even more sense for wing benefits and contests to be limited to a single home island. Thinking on it, I even like the idea that the current governor is the skyrate IN A WING ON THAT SKYLAND with the most influence racked up. It would prevent a few people having all the skyland governorships. Because honestly, how many geographically diverse places can you really govern simultaniously? Competition among a skyland's wings sounds like a swell idea on a broad scale, though there should be some things that are open to all wings anywhere. I likes me the sound of this wingby thing.

Way to revive a dead thread Talvin.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:30 pm 

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What about , when you do stuff; trading, flying or combat it adds (based on a fraction of the amount a player receives) "Wing points".

Wing points can be used to buy "Wing advantages"; a small decrease in taxes, a slightly boosted top speed, fractionally higher damage, slightly better armour etc. Similar to some of the skills the players already have access to, just lower percentages that all Wing members automatically recieve


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:46 pm 

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This is a great idea.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:59 am 

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The flag of a skyland is debated between fractions and the governor between individuals. Could a position like Elite Guard be debated between wings? (Also, doesn't each wing have a forum page? If so, where is it?)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:56 am 

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AFAIK, each wing does not get its own forum.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:37 pm 

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I'd like it if it were easier to contact my members of my wing, and if communication in general was easier. I've gotten to know every member of my wing, but I don't know how or if every member is connecting, because I'm not constantly online. A wing forum or some sort of "PM all wing members" function would make being a wing member easier and more fun.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:28 pm 
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I don't care to much about formal stuff for wings (inf/ranks ect) I just use them to chat with friends in a special chat :/ but there's a few things holding that back that I see-

1: limited by only joining one wing...lots of people currently make their own special wing and don't wanna leave it, having more than one wing would allow to keep their RP/personal/ect wing, and join others.

2: We should have more people per wing, of course :P

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:01 am 

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I think wings are fine the way they are. Giving them any kind of perks will only serve to fuel tensions between players and make newer ones feel left out. Wings do not play an important role right now and I do not think they should ever play an important role.

I think that adding new gameplay related things would be better than tweaking existing things like wings, especially if a "more friendly" type of game is to be presented without factions playing the major role they currently do.

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