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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:21 am 
Legend

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Zabrak! wrote:
Blue Vast wrote:
I've been flying in a mantis for months now, and I like the flight screen, but it's awful having to see the mantis bobbing up and down in the sky.

More to the point, it's awful seeing nothing but Mantises bobbing about the trade, fame, and inf boards.


I don't know, they don't seem to be as ugly an orange and brown in text as they do in the flight screen.

:remygross:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:54 am 
Legend

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Yes, well, perhaps to make my point a bit more clear, what I agreed with in Circle's post was the idea that the system outlined risks making a current aesthetic problem - the ubiquity of the Mantis - a substantive one. Specifically, at the very least people now configure their Mantises differently, but with a narrow range of planes at the top with relatively limited upgrades, there's a very real danger that there is a single and undisputed best plane for any given task (perhaps all tasks). And then what would the gearheads have to argue about?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:06 am 
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Zabrak! wrote:
And then what would the gearheads have to argue about?


Lengzoil versus Gonker State?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:26 am 

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Blue Vast wrote:
Zabrak! wrote:
And then what would the gearheads have to argue about?


Lengzoil versus Gonker State?


Seems unlikely, Lengzoil is the clear winner there. Gonker State has to kidnap pilots and ground their planes just to stay competitive. :gonk:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:30 am 
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Don't worry, we always argue. If it comes down to it, we can always reignite the hex vs. star headed screw holy wars.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:57 pm 

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I know this is different from what the devs are suggesting, but I'd like to see more planes at higher tiers - As a beginner you start off in a CR-4P, and as you gain more experience and are more comfortable with playing a whole lot more planes becomes available to help match your style of play. Tier 0 = 1 plane, Tier 1 = 3 planes, Tier X = Y planes (where X>1 and Y>3) and so on.

Would also mean that there's more diversity late-game - you won't be seeing all the top pilots aiming for/flying the same three or 4 planes.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:32 pm 

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I personally think you should scrap the tier system for planes. I'm not totally up-to-date with how planes are ranked these days. So take this example with a grain of salt.

Let's say that the Thor is currently considered kind of crappy for Tier 4. Let's say that the problem here is that for the same price, you could buy a Hades (or whatever).

You could make the Hades a little crappier. Or make the Thor a little better. But why not just make the Thor a little cheaper? It's a quick fix, and it gives players more interesting choices to make - buy a new plane now, or wait until I can get an even better plane? Instead of just, "I'll wait until I can buy the next better plane." If the Thor only costed 1M instead of 1.2M, it might be a much more attractive option.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:33 pm 

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I cannot stress how important the arcs are to the value of a plane. I might choose to fly a trade plane over a combat plane if it has better arcs. I can't really make any judgments without that information.

But I can still babble like I know what I'm talking about.

I am quite sad to see the hybrids go. I loved them up until I jumped into my Hades forever. It'd be cool to see them at the upper levels.

Stock planes are a great idea. In fact, I'd like to see more of them on this list.

I totally agree with Circle about the need for greater diversity on the upper levels. Everyone shooting for the same three planes is just boring.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:34 pm 

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Since you guys moved everything into three categories, have the stats been altered to the point where they all fly similarly? Would two different trade planes both be slow with large cargo, or would one still better resemble a perf/trade plane?

My main concern is diversity. Basically, I don't want players to feel like they have to constantly move up ranks to find planes that are better, but not particularly different. Would it be better to add more hybrid classes?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:39 pm 
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I can see some pros and cons.

Cons to the sugested system:
Limited choices. People like to have freedom in all things. With only a choice of three planes, people will feel like they are forced into what ever plane they end up buying. A larger selection of planes per teir would help take care of the need for freedom. I honestly felt like the current sixth tier needed more planes, because although I liked all three, I wanted to see more choices.

It will take forever to get to the end game plane.
I wanted to fly a 3K Avenger when I started playing. I am a lazy player, even if I am on chat a ton, and could only get to a 3K Bolo. I really want to fly a 3K T-bolt at least but now that's going to be impossible. By having more tiers, you are going to make it close to impossible for anyone coming into the game mid round to climb to the top tiers. Only the most active and hardest working players are going to fly the top tiered planes fully upgraded.

Pros:
Planes wont be not flown.
With the current system, there are planes that just don't get flown. That's because there are planes that are just better then they are that cost the same price. With fewer planes to choose from in each tier, the possibility of every plane being flown is greater.

More fluid climbing.
Assuming the stats are balanced and the ability to build wealth and buy higher tiers is also balanced, there will be a more fluid feel to climbing the tiers. People wont stop and play for long periods in a upgraded T3 plane (and there wont be masses of people in just one higher tier plane.)

My thoughts:
Give us at least five planes per tier, but have more then six tiers. I see nothing wrong with releasing planes mid round, because its going to take us a while to get to the higher tiers anyway. I liked being able to choose between the Hades and the Bolo (and flying both and loving both.) and I would hate to not have a choice between two planes in a tier for my playing style. As you are suggesting here, unless I find that a trader plane is better in combat, I really only have one choice if I stick with a combat playing style.

I love that there are more then just 6 tiers, that means that I have more motivation to work at playing the game. I also like that the hybrids are gone and we now have clear cut types of planes.

Another advantage to this new system is the effect it will have on combat. By adding more planes and tiers, and by having the stats and arcs adjusted, combat is going to be more varied and more interesting. I also think I caught that you have changed the stat system from a D20 system to a system based on values of 100. This will also make combat better, as we will probably wont see the critical hit only planes (but this might also mean that when flying the highest tier planes, the lowest wont even touch you.)

I would really like to see the stats and arcs. Being able to see those would help me form a more solid opinion, and might even change my opinion.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:14 am 

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The one thing I don't get is how the Leviathan fell below the Kingfisher and Lancaster in trading tiers.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:53 am 

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Speed?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:40 am 

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And honestly, where does the Leviathan carry its cargo? I think you can get more cargo in a Kingfisher-sized plane as opposed to a Leviathan-sized zeppelin. Unless the Leviathan is supported by Unob and the big balloon on top is really just a cargo hold...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:31 am 
Field Marshal

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PapaFrita wrote:
Since you guys moved everything into three categories, have the stats been altered to the point where they all fly similarly? Would two different trade planes both be slow with large cargo, or would one still better resemble a perf/trade plane?

My main concern is diversity. Basically, I don't want players to feel like they have to constantly move up ranks to find planes that are better, but not particularly different. Would it be better to add more hybrid classes?



Five categories.

You forgot Stock and Upgrade.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:26 am 

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Ace wrote:
And honestly, where does the Leviathan carry its cargo? I think you can get more cargo in a Kingfisher-sized plane as opposed to a Leviathan-sized zeppelin. Unless the Leviathan is supported by Unob and the big balloon on top is really just a cargo hold...


People really don't give the lifting capacity of lighter-than-air craft enough credit, and they also fail to comprehend the scale of these things. The cabiln of a WW2 era passenger zeplin is comparable the largest civilian planes we have today. We are pushing the envelope on the engineering required to keep the wings from falling off of our fixed wing heavy lifters, but lighter-than-air ships are just limited by having hangars big enough to store them. The History Channel tells me that today when we need something REALLY big airborn, we can call on a couple modern cargo blimps, and they are in the process of building an even bigger one.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:16 pm 
Developer

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answers to a couple common questions:

- limited choice: one of the reasons to pursue this method, in my mind, is to plug the gaps between tiers so that you don't get stuck at T3 for instance, looking up at a mountain of required funds. people already skip tiers, and i would expect that with this system that would increase.

- no hybrids: i expect to hybridize some or most of the normal lines, and narrow the gaps between those.

- arcs: we probably will be reassessing them, yes. i like most the way they are.

-PL-


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:18 pm 
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also, please stay on topic guys. i have a lot of stuff to take care of and appreciate short, pithy comments which relate to the subject at hand.

-PL-


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:42 pm 
Field Marshal

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Phil: Can we get a clarification on the Mantis's exact position? You still have it listed in two tiers.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:02 am 
Export Counsel

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Quote:
limited choice: one of the reasons to pursue this method, in my mind, is to plug the gaps between tiers so that you don't get stuck at T3 for instance, looking up at a mountain of required funds. people already skip tiers, and i would expect that with this system that would increase.


Narrower gap between tier prices, then? That could work. I too like having several options in a tier--it gives people something to talk about, and it also gives people nuances within a tier (and some outright mistakes) to learn from. But it the price differences between tiers weren't so steep, you'd probably get the same effect.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:13 am 
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Markus Jarnhann wrote:
Phil: Can we get a clarification on the Mantis's exact position? You still have it listed in two tiers.


i suspect we meant it to remain high upgrade, but i wouldn't be opposed to miring it in the middle tiers; after a plane has been such a dominant force we like to make sure it doesn't get too ensconced at the top.

-PL-


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