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 Post subject: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:05 pm 
Snuggler

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I've created a spreadsheet. It details a current proposal for the values that legendary combats will give. We've attempted to boost the amounts significantly.

The columns are as follows:
name: obvious
challenge: 1-100 value representing about how difficult it is in relation to the other combats here. 1 = easier, 100 = more difficult
influenceAmount: influence earned if fought on a skyland
workforceAmount: workforce earned if fought on a skyland
supplyAmount: supply earned if fought on a skyland
npcPowerHitPatrol: hit to the fleet's overall power if fought on a skyland
npcPowerHitFlight: hit to the fleet's overall power if NOT fought on a skyland

At the moment, all those columns are calculated based on the overall challenge value. The equation (currently) is linear.

Take a look at the numbers, especially the challenge rating. I rated them as I saw it, based on what planes were there and how often they had been defeated by players, but I'd love to know you all's thoughts.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... 2WkE&hl=en


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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:36 pm 
Moostro

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I'd be very curious if there were any counts of legendaries encountered (to see a percentage of kills vs failures) but I think I remember asking about that before and there not being one. It is difficult for me to gauge the challenge level very well since I'm flying decked out for combat. For me, there are four at the top of the chart:
* Hidden ring -- I cannot just charge and blast it while ignoring most everything else like with most combats
* Two Towers -- Similar to the hidden ring, requires a bit of finesse to avoid just giving up a bit too much armor charging ahead
* Hidden Assault -- Enough fluff to soften me up quite a bit before the big Ring dogfight
* Hidden Storm -- Even more to soften me up before the Ring dogfight

While I treat all the platforms with respect even with their reduced threat level, anything else is distinctly 'lesser' to me than the above four. I am aware that the circles tend to be more of a problem for some people as well. I guess overall, I'm saying the challenge levels feel about right, although I personally consider even a single ring a bit above a raid/patrol.


As for the stats, I don't have much thought on the WF/supply gain, since I don't pay all that much attention to the gains portions for those resources. I really like the way the +inf/-HFO for patrols balance versus each other and versus the in-flight -HFO count. I have not really run any kinds of numbers for effect prediction, but the numbers are in the range where it would make combat feel really effective, and patrols even more so (assuming it didn't take 40 patrols to get a single HF legendary naturally =)

Assuming the HFO peak is similar to where it was fluctuating before the last round stopped, I like these numbers. Good sense of effect from the in-flight combats vs the HFO recovery, strong patrol effect making combat a viable 'profession' for the war.

<kitty tail quivering anxiously for carrier arrival>

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:49 am 
Smashing Pumpkins

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Here's how I would rank the combats (first number is the challenge Taft gave, second number is how many times I've defeated it):
Code:
Two Towers      70      0
Hidden Storm    100     1
Hidden Fleet    65      0  (I once killed everything except a stupid {static} mine)
Lighthouse      60      3
Mine Storm      15      4
Hidden Assault  75      5
Hidden Ring     35      2
Hidden Airship  5       6
Hidden Attack   55      6
Hidden Raid     45      11
Minefield       1       19
Hidden Patrol   35      39
Hidden Square   20      1
Hidden Triangle 10      4
Hidden Circle   15      3


I would rank individual planes as follows:
Platform
Ring
Airship
Lighthouse Mine
Retro Bolo
Prox Mine
Square and anything with large or medium flaks
everything else

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:46 pm 

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Rings are easily the most dangerous enemy for any forward-shooting plane. I'll sail straight through a Two Towers in the Avenger without losing more than 4 points of armor, and then lose 8 points to one ring while I keep it at the tip of my arcs and trade blows. It hits harder than a platform and takes more punishment. It's safe to say that the Ring currently IS the Hidden Fleet, one Ring by itself is more dangerous than any combat without.

Circles (and the Patrols they come in) can be very dangerous for any low tier plane. Slow planes with poor maneuver (Phantom, Dauntless, etc) have a tough time with these. Sometimes a cluster of them will roll crits at once, and even higher tier planes with damage reduction will suddenly take heavy damage. They're trickier than they seem, and they spawn in the core.

Beyond this, the challenge ratings seem fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:30 pm 
Moostro

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I'm really enjoying this change so far btw. The frequency of legendary/HF does not appear to be any different than before however, was this change supposed to be active yet?

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:43 pm 
Snuggler

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We increased the spawn rate of everything by 50%. Keep flying around, if it still seems low, we may boost it again.


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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:08 pm 
Moostro

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Chesterfield Taft wrote:
We increased the spawn rate of everything by 50%. Keep flying around, if it still seems low, we may boost it again.



Ok, I'm not noticing an increase in HF encounter/hr compared to the last round, and the global HF legendary kill count rate basically matches the global HF legendary kill count rate in the middle of the 'time out' between rounds so far, but I"ll wait and see if it changes at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:03 pm 
Moostro

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nehp wrote:
Chesterfield Taft wrote:
We increased the spawn rate of everything by 50%. Keep flying around, if it still seems low, we may boost it again.



Ok, I'm not noticing an increase in HF encounter/hr compared to the last round, and the global HF legendary kill count rate basically matches the global HF legendary kill count rate in the middle of the 'time out' between rounds so far, but I"ll wait and see if it changes at all.


Ok, as things are starting to heat up, I've got some frequency numbers.
During the active previous round, the HF legendary kill per hour rate was generally around 3.1 to 3.8, usually in the 3.4ish range averaged over multiple days. During downtime (between rounds), this was around 2.0ish average.

At currently, we're hitting around 3.5-3.6 average over a couple days. It is increasing somewhat, but this is also with a mild campaign inviting people back into combat, whereas it wasn't really very strongly pushed during the previous round. While I'm not necessarily complaining about the effectiveness of the combats (I'm quite pleased with the impact per legendary kill, personally) It does seem and oddly minimized increase for a 50% spawn rate increase.

Mind you, I'm not attempting to make this a criticism, I'm just talking about what I'm seeing. Like I said, the results per combat is quite enjoyable, but it can still take a long time to get an HF legendary to pop, and they pretty much still rarely come up during a patrol, so afaic, the patrols are still barely impactful. I'm not sure what exactly got the 50% increase either, so it's hard to feel it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:12 pm 
Snuggler

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The 50% increase was spawn rate. I'll tweak it again.


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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:10 pm 
Moostro

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Chesterfield Taft wrote:
The 50% increase was spawn rate. I'll tweak it again.

Frequency of getting a combat period? Or some legendary or HF specific rate?

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:28 pm 
Moostro

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The hidden storm is listed on the spreadsheet at 75k npcPowerHitFlight, but has only been giving 25k. At first I thought it was just people getting patrols, but I've now seen it do only 25k HFO reduction in flight.

A quick check of other ones, in flight shows that they all seem to be giving npcPowerHitPatrol in flight.

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:49 am 
Smashing Pumpkins

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Looking at my logs, it appears that 15% of combats are Legendary: 5% Hidden Fleet, 10% non-HF. Are those the right numbers?

Does each Legendary have a range of danger levels that it appears at? I know there are some I can only get during patrols: 9 Balloons, 1K Cuts, Circle, Triangle, and maybe Square (I can't remember what I was doing the one time it showed up). And it seems everything else shows up only in flight or when patrolling someplace like Alpha 1 (I got a "Level 17" Mine Storm there once). But I can't see any other patterns.

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:15 am 
Moostro

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Kalin wrote:
Does each Legendary have a range of danger levels that it appears at? I know there are some I can only get during patrols: 9 Balloons, 1K Cuts, Circle, Triangle, and maybe Square (I can't remember what I was doing the one time it showed up).

These most certainly do show up in flight, everything can show up in flight. Although I'm not especially aware of what the minimum levels are, there are some.

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:55 am 
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If a special combat has a maximum level, it is possible to have so much Combat Infamy that you can only find it in patrols.


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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:24 pm 
Moostro

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Eskay wrote:
If a special combat has a maximum level, it is possible to have so much Combat Infamy that you can only find it in patrols.

I could certainly see that being the case, but I run max infamy, typically full on missions, and I still see all of the above in flight. It's quite possible I only see them in the core where it's low enough to dip, but I know I haven't been introduced to any form of dev-comment that confirm a maximum level, do we have any?

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:24 pm 
Smashing Pumpkins

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nehp wrote:
I could certainly see that being the case, but I run max infamy, typically full on missions, and I still see all of the above in flight. It's quite possible I only see them in the core where it's low enough to dip, but I know I haven't been introduced to any form of dev-comment that confirm a maximum level, do we have any?

When the Hidden War started, I had never seen the Balloons nor 1K Cuts; those two and the platform combats were the only Legendaries I hadn't defeated yet (besides the holiday ones). If there is a cutoff level, it's between 5 (Lhasa) and 17 (Alpha 1).

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:16 pm 

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Combat log overview since the last change...

60 manual combats at level 57. 60 wins.

Fleet: Two Towers x 3, Hidden Fleet x 2, Hidden Patrol x 1, Hidden Airship x 1.
Pirate: Phantom Junker x 1, Tubs of Fun x 2, Koi Pond x 1, Cargo Run x 1.

12% fleet legendary, 20% legendary overall.

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:14 pm 
Moostro

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Running through my HFO tracking, I produced a couple interesting tidbits:

1) Average HFO reduction per kill: 10k
Note that since patrol and in-flight ended up producing the same HFO reductions, rather than a bump for in flight, this should've been significantly higher, but I can't tell what was originally supposed to be a patrol or not.

2) Average HF legendary kills per hour: 3.75
This number has been rising steadily, so current daily rate is probably closer to a 4.00 average at this time.
This of course puts the average HFO reduction due to combats at around 37.5k/hr.
Likely this would've been closer to at least 75k-100k/hr if the in-flight HFO reduction amount was used for combats in flight.

Due to the echoing effect of HFO reductions (limited recovery per day), the actual HF INF reduction over the long term per hour is significantly higher. (the 25% recovery rate makes the long run result in approximately 4x the HFO reduction, but the realistic numbers are more along the lines of 3x over 5 days, 3.5x over 7 days)
What this means is that combat has been having a average *skytopia-wide* 131k/hr HF inf reduction taken over the long term average, or 3mil/day, with no in-flight bonus reduction.

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:24 pm 
Smashing Pumpkins

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Chesterfield Taft wrote:
One small word for you, though.

Carriers.

Carriers!

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 Post subject: Re: Legendary Combat Impact on the Hidden War
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:40 pm 
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I can think of... four things, off the top of my head, that that could mean. All are at least a little awesome but one in particular seems most likely.


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