Register / Log in

Server Costs Nov

Ends in 7 days 0%
It is currently Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:14 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Trade Challenge and Trading Points
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:14 am 
Explorer

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:33 pm
Posts: 1760
Location: Pacific Standard Time
Faction: Flight School
Offline
With the new, more challenging trade economy, players will earn profit (and thus Trade Points) far more slowly than in 2.3, on which the current Trade Point costs were based. Is there a plan to reduce the cost of TP skills or accelerate TP gain?

-c.

_________________
Deyo Llwyd rhys Penri
Director, Project Magellan
Lieutenant of the Crimson Armada, formerly of the Azure League and the Earthen Order.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:38 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:49 pm
Posts: 779
Faction: Azure League

Offline
If I can add to this, I'd like to say that I don't mind the current rate of TP gain. It'll take me a few months to top out my trade skills, and this honestly seems fair. What I don't like is going backwards in points with the combat losses.

_________________
Pilot-in-Command, Our Chief Export Is Violence III
Incarnation of Industry
Angels' wings are icing over, McDonnell Douglas olive drab. They bear the names of our sweethearts, and the captain smiles, as we crash.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:44 am 
Operations Director

Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:23 pm
Posts: 245
Faction: Flight School
Offline
Navvy wrote:
If I can add to this, I'd like to say that I don't mind the current rate of TP gain. It'll take me a few months to top out my trade skills, and this honestly seems fair. What I don't like is going backwards in points with the combat losses.


Seconded.

A less stiff penalty or a penalty that didn't only cripple traders would be nice.

-Victor

_________________
Secretary of the Interior for the Emerald Republic
Operations Director for the Jade Hand
Proud Member of the Raptor Defense Squad of Gonk
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:08 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:53 pm
Posts: 549
Faction: Flight School
Offline
To make combat penalties apply to all, the pirates could simply take some cash if you run out of cargo. The bribe cost would cap off at however much the pirates would take, so it's never cheaper to lose.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:29 pm 
Cupid

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:29 pm
Posts: 1391
Faction: Jade Hand

Offline
Has the economy just been fiddled with and I missed it? I'm just asking because I'm earning TP faster now than I ever have -- about 60 a day, averaging all the way back to day 1 when I was toddling around in a CR4P. That means I can buy several Level 3 tax-reduction skills a day. Since the Beta should have those tax-reduction skills actually working, that number will likely be higher in the real round.

_________________
Secretary of the Interior of the Jade Hand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:54 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:02 pm
Posts: 289
Location: Somerville, MA
Faction: Independent

Offline
Navvy wrote:
If I can add to this, I'd like to say that I don't mind the current rate of TP gain. It'll take me a few months to top out my trade skills, and this honestly seems fair. What I don't like is going backwards in points with the combat losses.


This. I haven't earned a trade point in several days, and am likely 2 or 3 days from doing so, because I got shot down 3 times with some oil on me deep in the south. I lost about 90 oil of a cargo of 116; in practical terms, I spent 117k on it and sold it for 37k, and the end result was a huge loss.

Losing the cargo is enough of a punishment; I lost about 120k in cash on that, by my estimate of what it would have sold for. but 5 days with no advancement in TP is just frustrating. Nothing I do in trade impacts combat (let alone this badly). I can't see any reason to be a trader in this edition, and as you can see from my .sig, I've *always* been a trader.

Thes.

_________________
Thespian realizes she just plotted herself a spiral.
Thespian: romeo > sharif > valvia > midgard > jordan > cidade > leng.
Okol Zumabarota: Vortex.
Thespian: I am a whirlwind of trade!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:39 pm 
True Friend

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:07 pm
Posts: 215
Faction: Flight School
Offline
I agree with Kippei... I haven't noticed the combat issue (hi, autoresolver) but I don't think I'm earning TP that slowly. I'm hanging out at Gonk and Tinkspoit, bringing steel and fish back and forth and have been earning TP at a good clip. And money too, for that matter.

Numberwise, I joined the alpha at the second gating, which (looking back at the post history) appears to be ~9 days ago. I have 679 TP, which gives 679/9 = 75 TP a day. And for about half that time I was trading crappy goods in the core and making hardly any money. I've only had one small setback in TP, I think your combat losses are skewing your perception of TP accumulation.

The combat question may be a valid one, but I hated the fact that KF's could be on the combat dailes last round. I like real choices when buying a plane, and last round it came down to speed/cargo ratio - not whether a craft was good for trading or combat or influence. Now, should combat change so it has some real consequences? Yeah, that's a notion I can get behind.

edit: "real consequences" as in consequences that primarily effect combat pilots. ie, if your gun stops working but you're carrying a full load of cargo in a trade plane, no big deal - you still get a big payoff at the end of the trip. If your money is coming from combats and now you can't fight them, problem! (attached to that, downsize combat plane cargo - they can already add storage upgrades, make them)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:49 pm
Posts: 779
Faction: Azure League

Offline
Player #13 here, with 10 days of flight and 1270 trade points. I'm a dedicated trader, so I expect I have more points than most players do. With the high number of points needed for high level skills, this rate seems pretty decent, maybe a bit fast. Of course, I'm not making actual money as fast as a pure combat player could, but that's another topic.

Now, here's the problem. Everyone needs trade points for the end game. CS and Trade Prestige, the top levels of those cost what, 2500 points together? Everyone needs equal access to trading, both combat and trade players. A combat plane doing nothing but trading isn't a problem now, the CKPH they get is fair.

Now, what about the players who trade and fight? They get whatever their CKPH is, plus a ton of combat bounties. With the current combat imbalance and the high levels found in all of the trade paths, this favors combat planes heavily. Trade planes can't really fight in this system, much less fly risky and try to harvest bounties. Sporadic players are also out of favor. Two groups of people will be quickly left behind by those who fight while trading. I've tried this, my trade+combat guy is a tier and a half ahead of my trade guy.

Due to the inherent imbalance of tradefighting, I'm thinking it could use a few tweaks to make it slightly more fair. The most elegant solution I've thought of is reducing the combat levels for cargo-loaded planes. Cargo carrying planes will fall into the same pathways. They're heavy, so they all take the most direct route to arrive on time. And that means that the route has been plowed clean by other planes before they fly down it. Meanwhile cargo-light planes can explore and look for trouble.

Mechanically, the level of combat generated takes into account the amount of cargo in a plane's hold. A 100% full hold might reduce the combat level, and the bounties associated with it, by 50%. 50% hold would score 75% combat level and bounty. This should reduce the lead that combat+trade players have over trade players, plus reduce the risk+difficulty of the combats for cargo-heavy planes.

Other idea: getting shot down loses cargo. Having Smuggling, and shooting others down, gains cargo. Engage in piracy of your own, refill your hold and make back your trade points.

_________________
Pilot-in-Command, Our Chief Export Is Violence III
Incarnation of Industry
Angels' wings are icing over, McDonnell Douglas olive drab. They bear the names of our sweethearts, and the captain smiles, as we crash.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:34 pm 
Cupid

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:29 pm
Posts: 1391
Faction: Jade Hand

Offline
Navvy wrote:
The most elegant solution I've thought of is reducing the combat levels for cargo-loaded planes.


Now that's an interesting idea. Instead of cargo INCREASING combat level, like it currently does, it could DECREASE it. Hmm. Interesting indeed.

Alternatively (or additionally), just decrease combat bounties down closer to the autoresolver's bounty level. The cash is nice, but... it's really a LOT of dough as compared to pure trading right now. (This has been suggested before, of course; I'm just reiterating it for this thread.)

_________________
Secretary of the Interior of the Jade Hand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:51 pm 
Helpful

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:32 pm
Posts: 1767
Faction: Azure League

Offline
Kippei wrote:
Instead of cargo INCREASING combat level, like the manual currently lies,

FYT.

Actually, I'm not sure it still says this. But it did until the end of last round, and by every word of dev I've ever heard, this feature never got implemented.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:22 am 
Cupid

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:29 pm
Posts: 1391
Faction: Jade Hand

Offline
Haha, awesome, Eskay. And here I'd been wondering, "Hm, does just one crate of catnip increase the combat level, or do I need a whole bunch? Is one crate of catnip and one of grog better than two of catnip?" But, no, it doesn't actually matter at all... That's just pretty funny.

_________________
Secretary of the Interior of the Jade Hand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:46 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:53 pm
Posts: 549
Faction: Flight School
Offline
Reducing combat levels while loaded up is very clean, and makes things interesting for everyone.

Straight traders get less danger, and might even be able to get more combat money, if it means they can handle the combats now. They don't have to fight combats to stay competitive, and can be true straight traders.

Straight combat pilots conversely won't have to trade to stay competitive.
In the combat rebalance thread, Sadistica wrote:
Seriously: I make quite a few times more money doing all the combats on a trade route than I make with the trade. Basically the only reason I fill my hold up with tradegoods (When I'm at the computer, that is) is because, hey, the hold is there, and why not use it?
Well, this will give them a reason to not use it. If you'd rather just fight, go ahead and just fight. It won't hurt your profits.

Hybrid players get new options and interesting decisions to make. They might hunt while they're around and trade while they're not. They might, oddly enough, load up on cargo while traveling through a particularly dangerous area. They might – *gasp* – set out with a partially filled hold. Fun stuff.

One odd side effect would be that if you lose a combat and the pirates take some cargo, subsequent combats get harder. This shouldn't make enough of a difference to matter, and if it does then base levels on whatever cargo you had at the beginning of the leg.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:23 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:25 pm
Posts: 999
Faction: Flight School
Offline
Istatay wrote:
Straight combat pilots conversely won't have to trade to stay competitive.


I disagree. If I don't constantly trade, I never get enough TP to afford the skills that unlock the best missions end game (and some really good combat missions for early to mid game). Plus, you need a LOT of TP even just to afford something like Salvage Ops (Can't remember exactly, but I believe it's at least 1000-1500 total). Further, last round, the reason I was so high on the funds ranking (I think 4th or 5th overall), even though I did almost no trading for over half the round, was due in large part to the fact that I had a Level 8 Trader on my crew giving me a nice little bonus to every one of my combats. No trading means no TP, means that trader is stuck at level 1, and means that those bonuses are quite paltry.

If you want to compete, especially in the influence game at the end, trading is a necessity.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:27 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:53 pm
Posts: 549
Faction: Flight School
Offline
Ah; true that. Reducing levels with cargo is a step in the right direction for making trade and combat both optional. You would still need to trade for the TP and trader XP, but not to get optimal profit at any point.

Something else would be needed to make straight combat viable. Either you need to be able to get crucial skills without TP, or you'd need to get TP without trading. Traders can get some CP from autoresolver wins, why couldn't combat pilots get some TP from salvage?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:51 am 
Cupid

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:29 pm
Posts: 1391
Faction: Jade Hand

Offline
Except for Salvage Operations, straight combat is still viable without TP, just like straight trading is still viable without CP. An influence runner, however, needs to get both.

Think of an influence runner like a stock plane: Decent at both trading and combat but an expert at neither. There's no reason that someone who wants to dabble in both trading and combat needs to be able to get TP as fast as someone who is just trading or CP as fast as someone who is just fighting. However, an inf-runner won't need to get the same depth of skills that a pure trader would need; Luxury Schmuxury Level 8 isn't necessary for carrying Eltsina's Boon, no matter how (possibly) shiny it is.

It would basically been opening the field up to specialization: Traders aren't likely to top the combat or inf charts, fighters aren't likely to top the trade or inf charts, and inf-runners aren't likely to top the trade or combat charts.

Except, of course, that missions still increase combat levels, so inf + combat would actually still work fine under this system. So that would imply that missions need to decrease combat level, as well. Hm...

_________________
Secretary of the Interior of the Jade Hand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:04 am 
Helpful

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:32 pm
Posts: 1767
Faction: Azure League

Offline
Kippei wrote:
Except for Salvage Operations, straight combat is still viable without TP, just like straight trading is still viable without CP. An influence runner, however, needs to get both.

I love this point of your post, except that it's not entirely true as long as the influence game remains the sole endgame. (Watch me elsewhere try to tug missions forwards into a third parallel game.) Currently, a completed combat pilot or completed trader will either stop playing, or shift into a different style. That transition's rocky from Combat to Mission because of the need for TP, but smooth from Trade to Mission 'cause a runner can work with fairly low CP. If we're looking to balance this, we'll have to address this disparity, either by requiring some CP for an inf skill or by requiring much less Trade Prestige for runners.

Edit: You could have mission runners earn a trickle of TP by awarding TP for trade missions. If you like that way of doing things.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:13 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:25 pm
Posts: 999
Faction: Flight School
Offline
I'll also note that a person focused on grinding combat missions will always be way outperformed by someone who just hunts all day at the highest levels (Last round, I think my highest combat level day was in the 5000s, while hunting east of Grotto all day could make about double that), so, assuming there are at least 10 people who do that, a Combat focused influence runner would never make the charts.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:37 am 
Cupid

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:29 pm
Posts: 1391
Faction: Jade Hand

Offline
Eskay: TP for trade missions would be REALLY nice, at least with the current model. Maybe not so much for the proposed alteration; I'd have to think on that more.

Acero: That's a good point!

Also, I like the idea of bringing CP into running missions. Maybe a third skill entirely? Skyland Trust, Trade Prestige, and Combat Distinction could all open up different sets of missions. They'd all have different justifications for it, too: Skyland Trust is where people trust you because you've been around for so long, Trade Prestige is where you're such an influential trader that people go to you for help, and Combat Distinction is where you're such a good fighter that people trust you to be able to make it through the pirate blockades with their valuables.

_________________
Secretary of the Interior of the Jade Hand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:21 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:49 pm
Posts: 779
Faction: Azure League

Offline
By the time you start running inf, money has become a non-issue. You're at T9, and if upgrades become vital to inf, then you'll have all the upgrades you need before you start running seriously. Income balance between the trade/combat classes is only truly important during the race to get to T9. And missions have never paid as well as trading, so missions+combat is not nearly as troublesome as trading+combat.

Unless mission payout explodes, it's kind of a non-issue.

_________________
Pilot-in-Command, Our Chief Export Is Violence III
Incarnation of Industry
Angels' wings are icing over, McDonnell Douglas olive drab. They bear the names of our sweethearts, and the captain smiles, as we crash.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:26 am 
Cupid

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:29 pm
Posts: 1391
Faction: Jade Hand

Offline
/em is already governor of two Jade skylands, according to the emails, yet still putzing about at T6 level.

_________________
Secretary of the Interior of the Jade Hand


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group