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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:23 pm 
Legend

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Zabrak! wrote:
I'll respond when you make a new point, Slu.


While you're waiting for that, could you please respond to the questions I asked over a month ago:

Blue Vast wrote:
Which balance is being struck presently? Who's making the case that eliminating negative feedback would cause massive defensive stagnation? Why would that stagnation come about? How is my proposed stagnation different from the current stagnation? What is the point of building up a defensive lead if it's going to hurt in the long run?


And I'll ask a couple more: How do you find value/satisfaction in a foreign governorship? What do you define as success in the influence game(deliberately left open-ended)?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:01 pm 
True Friend

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Quote:
How do you find value/satisfaction in a foreign governorship?


Wait, are you serious Blue Vast?

Are you not the governor of Lhasa, New Hovlund, and Shriebeck? All of them being "foreign" skylands.

So how do you, Blue Vast, find value/satisfaction in a foreign governorship?

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'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.'


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:00 pm 
Min-Maxer

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Zabrak! wrote:
I'll respond when you make a new point, Slu.


That would imply you've actually responded to these two points, at the very least. Which I, probably through my own stupidity, can't find your responses to.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:05 pm 
Combat Guru

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The March Hare wrote:
So how do you, Blue Vast, find value/satisfaction in a foreign governorship?


To be fair, he never claimed any.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:30 am 
True Friend

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Quote:
To be fair, he never claimed any.


Why does he play the influence game then?

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But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice.

'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.'


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:21 am 
Legend

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The March Hare wrote:
Quote:
To be fair, he never claimed any.


Why does he play the influence game then?


BL's right, I never claimed to find value/satisfaction in my governorships. And I don't, they're empty victories for the most part, except maybe Lhasa of which I became governor when it was predominately Blue, and Kathryn's graphs tells me Lhasa ownership's been about 50/50. I'd rather have one governorship that was difficult to obtain than have five that were basically handed to me, hypothetically speaking.

There are myriad reasons to play the influence game. One good one I find is keeping governorships and skylands out of red hands. But I also have a duty to my faction, and, I feel, to the game. If I didn't continue to play the game, I wouldn't be able to speak out against what I perceive as flaws in it. I wouldn't be able to ask questions critical of the influence system and its advocates.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:31 pm 
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It might just be me, but actions usually speak louder than words so boycotting the influence game would probably get the dev's attention more than being one of the strongest players in it.

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But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice.

'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.'


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:04 pm 
Legend

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The March Hare wrote:
It might just be me, but actions usually speak louder than words so boycotting the influence game would probably get the dev's attention more than being one of the strongest players in it.


You're not going to get rid of me that easily, Hare.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:34 pm 
True Friend

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/me watches another of his genius plans turn into nothing more than dreams and wishes.

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But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice.

'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.'


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:22 am 
Legend

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With the new round coming up, what's the situation with negative feedback?

I still think it's a poor game mechanic, and I've seen very little in the way of arguments for it besides "that's just the way it is".

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~Blue Vast.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:52 am 
Developer

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i think we'd like to experiment with some changes. taft and i discussed it and were both somewhat fond of a "cease-fire" kind of period where a skyland's flag might be effectively frozen for a day or so after it was taken, so that all parties could breathe for a little while.

we think that having races with a clear endpoint are more fun than races that go on indefinitely.

honestly, i've never heard a complaint about negative feedback which makes it clear to me what the problem is. yes, it's hard to take and hold a skyland. that to me seems inherently better than "it's hard to take a skyland." with positive or neutral feedback, where's the risk? risk is what makes things fun.

anyway, we're still listening and actively considering ideas. i concede that enough people seem to be upset with negative feedback that we should seriously look to try some alternatives. it's unlikely to receive attention between now and the end of the month, however.

-PL-


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:56 am 
Developer

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the argument for negative feedback goes something like this. Look at the all-time ranks. http://skyrates.net/ranks.php when was the last time a name other than Stone Cold or Burrito Loco were at the top of any list? How much work do those guys NOT need to do in order to stay there? SC has been on skyrates, on average, for a few minutes at a time once every couple of weeks for the last few months.

in influence, i have no problem at all with saying that it should be harder to hold a skyland than it is to hold a 150,000-level lead in combat.

-PL-


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:51 am 
Legend

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I thought Kyra's suggestion about this had some merit.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:01 am 
Legend

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phil wrote:
honestly, i've never heard a complaint about negative feedback which makes it clear to me what the problem is.


I can't express how disheartened reading that made me.

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~Blue Vast.
Captain of Wynona.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:22 am 
Legend

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Blue Vast wrote:
I can't express how disheartened reading that made me.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:01 am 
Legend

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Zabrak! wrote:
Blue Vast wrote:
I can't express how disheartened reading that made me.

Pic of sad Georgie


I'm not sure I see the significance of that picture, other than he looks sad. Well, actually, he looks sort of like he has to pee.

:remygross:

I still think my revolting skylands idea is absolutely brilliant. Slap on another faction to make 5 and there's absolutely no need for NF.

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Captain of Wynona.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:27 am 
Legend

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Oh, it's just that sometimes, in some ways, you remind me a little of Dear Leader.

I didn't find your revolting skylands idea so ... uh, revolting when I first read about it. I'll try to find some time to post further thoughts after I finish telling Gil why his wacky CR4P influence system is silly.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:45 am 
Legend

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Zabrak! wrote:
Oh, it's just that sometimes, in some ways, you remind me a little of Dear Leader.

I didn't find your revolting skylands idea so ... uh, revolting when I first read about it. I'll try to find some time to post further thoughts after I finish telling Gil why his wacky CR4P influence system is silly.


I'd like to preempt you a bit to delve into more detail.

Imagine if you will, a Skytopia where political strife takes its toll on the everyman.

The influence game, at least how it stands now, relies on factional pride and a good spirit of competition to exist. But to work it needs incentives for both offenses and defenses, which I think the system lacks under negative feedback.

Revolting skylands, I believe, would provide a perfect balance between the two incentives. Defenses, both factional and gubernatorial, won't be so deep at the possible eradication of possible months of work. Not wanting to risk putting too much into defense, factions would (hopefully) work to spread out their efforts.

At a personal level, there'll be new gubernatorial strategy. Since 'elections', which don't necessarily need to be part of or apart from full-scale skyland revolt, and their consequential levelling of the gubernatorial playing field are inevitable, even on faction Capitals(Capital flags hopefully would be immune from revolts), players will have to make their own, personal choices. As their term in office grows longer, the likelihood of elections becomes more and more. A balance would have to be struck between their efforts keeping the office and focusing on other things.

Faction-wide, things would be similar. Aggressive factions have a choice whether to focus on skylands that have been 'unrevolted' for a while, or starting off on an even foot with freshly revolted skylands. World domination would require a fine balance between a faction's offensive and defensive efforts, reactions to their opposition's efforts, and the possibility a good chunk of their progress breaks off in the middle of their campaign.

As far as mechanics go, I foresee a 'countdown' of faction-influence as a skyland revolts. When the flag finally changes to neutral it'll stay that way for a period of time, perhaps up to a day for each step. The start of the new 'election' cycle, if there is to be one at the revolted skyland in question, would also begin immediately after the flag change to neutral.

Skylands along borders would be more susceptible to revolt, with the proximity to other factions and their ideologies have an influence on the citizens. Another possibility is skylands with color-matched governor and ownerships would be more likely to oust the governor during a revolt. Though that may be complicating things too much. Edit: Another potential feature could be skylands with foreign governors are more likely to revolt.

Revolts would happen semi-haphazardly. There won't be six at once like with the legacy event, but more like 2 or 3 within a few days at most. Periods of stability could last 2 weeks or so.

All of these numbers are theoretical of course; I'm no number cruncher.

There's an element of risk that phil wanted, along with equality on both factionwide and individual levels. There are still choices about where to run influence without the loathsome prospect of taking a route into your own faction's territory.

I'd like to quote my previous post on the subject:

Blue Vast wrote:
Clearing the influence from a skyland every now and then as I see it would shake up a few things:
1. Players would be less likely, but not totally unlikely due to competition, to build up preposterous leads on skylands.
2. Factions work together more, either trying to keep a previously-owned, revolted skyland, or expanding and capitalizing on a revolted skyland.
3. Newcomers can more easily get their licks in, theoretically spurring the growth of more influence-runners.
4. Governors would more likely be color-matched to their skylands, other than what we have now with the 'negative feedback' system of which I'm not a fan.
5. Battles for governorships may be more knock-down drag-out than before.

There are other pros to this system:
1. It's simple for players to understand and work with.
2. The system to do it is there and can leave personal influence alone.
3. It's not a terrible drain on system resources(right?).
4. Capitals can be left alone.

There are some cons, of course:
1. Some players don't take lightly to losing weeks and months worth of work at skylands.
2. Finding an acceptable rate and a method to ensure fairness but not predictability may be difficult.


As far as the cons go, it's a new chapter in Skytopia. I think players would be willing to cope with the loss of a bit of (edit: effort, not influence).

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~Blue Vast.
Captain of Wynona.


Last edited by Blue Vast on Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:24 am 

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From a story POV, I think saying that these "revolts" are really Pirate takeovers makes it cooler. And we already have a flag for it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:39 am 
Legend

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Pierce N.V. Post wrote:
From a story POV, I think saying that these "revolts" are really Pirate takeovers makes it cooler. And we already have a flag for it.


Yeah, I neglected to point out that as a mechanic it's easier to swallow as something that's realistic.

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Captain of Wynona.


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