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 Post subject: The Open Mantis Design Forum
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:50 pm 
Hoover Heavy Ind. Head

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:35 pm
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Hello everyone,

The time has come to open the floor for the final configuration of the Mantis!

I have some requirements:

• You may select a tier between 3 and 6 that the new craft should be priced with in.

• You may use a similar craft in a tier to base your stats off of, if it is greatly powered compared to a ship in a similar HHI may need to adjust the price accordingly.

• Please describe your variant in detail cost, all stats, upgrades, weight, arcs, the type of craft you are going for, and so on. We can make exceptional aircraft, but even HHI has limits in what we can construct, again… you may reference other craft of a similar price/design in your specification as to provide economic viability reference.

• HHI’s engineers have in mind an extremely upgradeable craft with relatively low base stats, if you’d like to explore this idea as well… you are free to do so.

• The open Mantis forum will come to a close on Tuesday. Please submit your designs to this posting. After the forum is over my team will look over the submissions and select a variant to attempt to produce. Despite our best efforts the price of raw materials has gone up, it will be difficult to engineer some systems on the cheap.

Happy Designing Skytopia, looking forward to the results.

Respectfully,
G.C. Hoover


Last edited by G.C. Hoover on Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:48 pm 

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The real question is what kind of arcs should it have? I'm thinking something along the lines of a super nomad arc would produce a very interesting trader/combat hybrid. With the upgradeability you could get some read firepower out of it, but still have the defensive power of something you'd want to be using while trading.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:52 pm 

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This design is supposed to be the Tier 6 equivalent of a Dauntless.

Upgrade weight: 28000

Upgrade Slots
Engine: 2
Gun: 3
Wing: 2
Hull: 2

Max Speed: 550
Stall Speed: 150
Acceleration: 100

Cargo: 80
Range: 2700

Maneuver: 8
Firepower: 10
Armor: 9
Ammo: 1800

Crew: 5


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:18 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:41 am
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A T5 combat with mastiff front arcs in the back, and a miniture havoc spread in the front.

Upgrade weight: 20000

Upgrade Slots
Engine: 1
Gun: 3
Wing: 2
Hull: 2

Max Speed: 550
Stall Speed: 125
Acceleration: 90

Cargo: 60
Range: 2100

Maneuver: 7
Firepower: 9
Armor: 9
Ammo: 1500

Crew: 3

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:27 pm 
Pirate Hat

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Thank you for your solicitation of Skyrate interest in contributing to the development of the Mantis!

I think if the plane starts with low base stats, it will be severely hindered for upgrades that work on percentages: engine mods, cargo increases, and range increases. Therefore, I suggest that the Mantis begin with good stats in these categories. Also, because of the limit of one upgrade of each kind, you can't add more than 11 firepower (4 gun mods) or 7 manueverability (3 wing mods).

Here's my proposed design:

Mantis-PT - tier 6 upgrade

Max speed 550
Stall speed 180
Accel 150
Cargo 60
Range 1800
CKPH 25000

Manuever 5
Firepower 5
Armor 5
Ammo 1800

Upgrade slots:
Engines: 3
Guns: 3
Wings: 3
Hull: 3
Upgrade weight allowed: 24000

Crew: 4

Arcs: similiar to the Seahawk except side arcs are swept back instead of forward and stick out a little more.

Now, let's look at some extremes of customization:

The Performance Version: 23,900 upgrade weight

1034 speed, 207 stall speed, 11 manuever, 12 firepower, 78 cargo
80,652 CKPH

The Combat Version: 23,700 upgrade weight

880 speed, 90 stall speed, 11 manuever, 17 firepower, 87 cargo
76,560 CKPH

The Trader Version: 23,300 upgrade weight

852 speed, 180 stall speed, 5 manuever, 12 firepower, 117 cargo
99,684 CKPH


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:03 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:27 am
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It's an honor to take a crack at it, sir.

Here's my first crack at a T5 upgrade plane:

T5, so that you CAN'T kit it (without infinite money), but instead have to use regular upgrades. Then I tested various upgrade schemes against 1) Burrito Loco's 2x kitted Vengence and 2) my next build (multi-kitted Requin), 3) Keyo's plane, and 4) a fully-upgraded Kingfisher, to test it for flexibility.

525 top speed*, 180 accel, 170 stall*, 7 fp*, 7 arm*, 7 man*, 46 cargo*, 2800 fuel, 4 crew, 20800 upgrade weight (or more), 4 engine (or 6), 4 gun, 4 wing, 4 hull, 1243 ammo*.

Paper testing: It was able to hang with all of them, except that against the RVfisher, it had to balance the lack of raw cargo-sized based trading with the ability to reach Uuwerk and Grotto, and it couldn't match the performance plane (Keyo's). Two more engine slots and it could do OK against it, though (if you valued the larger hold over the combat stats and really liked using crew)

Arcs: I haven't much though about arcs. I think at least one rear arc for people using slower trading builds, and decent front arcs for the fighers (the old Mark II had great arcs).

- PvP


*I got these numbers by averaging T4 stat's, which tend to be better than t5's.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:45 pm 
Hack Journalist

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Well, I'm a big fan of perf or combat perf. I'm ok with having it a t5, since I feel t5 is the weakest tier. A t6 or even 7 would be extremely neat as well. My priorities are engine slots > wing slots (or good maneuver) > Gun > hull. I feel that 3+ engine, 2 + wing, 3+ gun slots and at least one hull is what works best for me. I'm fine with low cargo capability. Low top speed drives me nuts. And as long as the arcs are better than the t-bolts, yay!


The upgrade class seems very neat, but delicate to get right

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:14 pm
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I might as well take a crack at it. I'm still kinda new to all this, so bear with me. Feedback is appreciated, as long as it is constructive (no flaming me with 'OMG u n00bz0rz, yur design suxz0rz!')

Mantis - T5 Combat/Trading
Front Arcs: Hades
Back Arcs: Kingfisher

Max Speed: 675 kph
Min Speed: 170 kph
Accel: 175 kph/s
Range: 1900
Firepower: 9
Manuever: 8
Armor: 9
Ammo: 1658

Cargo: 110
Crew Seats: 4
Max Upgrade Weight: 18000 lbs
Upgrades:
Engine: 2
Guns: 2
Wings: 2
Hull: 2


Last edited by Stryker on Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:07 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:01 pm
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Good day sir! Dropping off a design for an upgrade plane, T4 because it's more reachable and reasonable to kit out.

Weight max: 18,000
Engine: 2
Gun: 2
Wing: 2
Hull: 2

Max speed: 500
Min speed: 150
Acceleration: 130

Cargo: 40
Range: 1300

Maneuver: 5
Firepower: 5
Armor: 5

Crew: 2

Firing arcs: plane should be Seafire sized, with twin parallel Nova arcs facing forward and small tail arc similar to the Seahawk's.

As an upgrade plane, it has decent base stats to work with such that one can build it to be a competitive trader or fighter, though it won't perform quite as well on performance I guess. Anyway, cheerio and good luck designing the Mantis!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:19 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:23 pm
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I forgot to mention arcs for my design: a nice long rear arc, like the lancaster's, along with a pair of front arcs like the chaparrel's.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:03 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:27 pm
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How about a perf/trader style plane with some actual teeth? The Seafire and Barracuda are both lemons relative to the combat/traders available in their tiers (the 'Cuda sprite is like fifteen times the size of the Dauntless, and yet it can hold less crew and less cargo -- nice!)

So:

Mantis - T4 Perf/Trader

Max Speed: 550
Min Speed: 200
Accel: 140
Range: 1425

Cargo: 38

Firepower: 5
Maneuver: 7
Armour: 4
Ammo: 1025

Engine: 2
Guns: 2
Wings: 1
Hull: 1

Crew: 2


Mantis - T5 Perf/Trader

Max Speed: 600
Min Speed: 205
Accel: 150
Range: 1800

Cargo: 45

Firepower: 5
Maneuver: 8
Armour: 5
Ammo: 1025

Engine: 3
Guns: 2
Wings: 1
Hull: 2

Crew: 3

--

For arcs, I suggest a variation on the Requin, with either the front of back arcs beefed up a bit. Another alternative is to Nova-fy the Spectre's truly awesome arcs, making them a bit longer and thinner. Again, I feel like the stupendously crappy combat stats of most of the perf/traders is kind of a waste of their arcs, which are a lot of fun to fight with.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:31 pm 
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Okay, an alternate design here.

I'd like to try a plane with some weird arcs - like the blimp side arcs, but not a blimp. So, call it a T5 'upgrade' plane. Give it performance characteristics, so it has a high max speed and stall speed - that keeps you from just using the side arcs like a 'sit-and-spin' plane.

Say:

Mantis - Wing-Gun Model (T5 Upgrade)

500 max, 250 stall speed, 180 accel, range 1800, 45 cargo
24000 upgrade weight, 3 engine, 3 gun, 3 wing, 3 hull slots
4 crew slots

Arcs: two LONG side arcs, tilted slightly forward, and that's it.

Could call it an 'Escort Fighter' - it's designed to fly with a group of blimps and defend them from pirates.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:34 pm 

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Or, to take it in a completely different direction, how about a serious gunboat with none of this stupid 'cargo' crap weighing it down. Slow but maneuverable, without the lazy {static} arcs of the Hades and rewarded instead with some proper kick.

This version trades in some cargo for additional upgrade weight. I imagine it as a kind of mini-dirigible/glider with truly ridiculous (and scientifically dubious) gun mounts.

Mantis - T4 Combat (stats with a * are notably out of synch with the tier/type)

Max Speed: 400
Min Speed: 110
Accel: 215 *
Range: 1575 *

Cargo: 30*

Firepower: 9
Maneuver: 7
Armour: 4*
Ammo: 1338

Upgrade weight: 16,500*

Engine: 2
Guns: 3
Wing: 2
Hull: 1

Crew: 2

Clearly it needs some interesting arcs to go with its stats, ideally ones that make you really feel like you're kicking {static} when you bring that huge FP to bear -- gotta make all that slow-crawling around with no cargo worth it somehow.

So for one thing, the Vengeance has taught us that symmetrical arcs are for losers. So why not take the slick four-point Spectre arcs and throw in a little MAD SCIENCE?

Here's a sketch, straight from the drawing board as it were:
Image

The scale of the sprite is all wrong, so all those arcs should be proportionately longer and stick out more -- I'm imagining the right front arc as being a little longer than a Nova arc, and the left front arc should be a bit close to one of the Barracuda's arcs. The back ones in the drawing are too stubby too -- {static} MS Paint!

Edit: In fact when I think about it, take out that rear left arc completely. It's starting to look too much like a Hades jr.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:56 pm 
Senator

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Tier: Six (6).

I think you have to ask yourself whether you want the Mantis to be kitted (T1-4), kitted only after loads of money (T5, but it *will* get kitted), or not kitted at all (T6, and maybe one kit after lots of saving).

To me, personally, if the Mantis was made as a T5 I have a feeling it would be *the* favorite plane to kit. If the Mantis is a T5 it needs much lower base stats than people have been giving to account for the kitting that will happen.

Which is why I present this version of the Mantis as Tier 6.

Arcs: The length and style of the MKii's front arcs, and the back straight arc from the Seahawk.

Mantis - T6 "Upgradability" Class

Max Speed: 650 (1400-1600 kph max Max Speed w/o a kit)
Min Speed: 275 (set high to encourage stall reduction on an engine slot)
Accel: 150 (same as the Avenger)
Range: 3000 (highest range of the T6's)

Cargo: 40 (prolly around 75 max cargo, not counting CS)

Firepower: 7
Maneuver: 9
Armour: 6
Ammo: 1500

Engine: 5
Guns: 3
Wings: 3
Hull: 4

Crew: 5 (one of each crew type and two of your favorite)

Upgrade Capacity: 35000

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 Post subject: hee hee
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:25 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:16 am
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I really like thorne's idea of the Upgradability t6, but I wish it could be

T5

max speed : 700
min speed:270
Accel: 180
Range: 1700

cargo: 50

Fp: 3
Maneuver:6
Armor: 6
Ammo: 1300

upgrade weight: 18000
engine:4
Guns: 4
Wings: 4
Hull: 4

4 crew

here's why I gave the stats I gave it:
for a while, I've been hoping for a tricked out UFO sort of thing with a bolo x2.5 arc. with such a huge range of area, I give it low FP, this plane is cool, because it's immensley upgradable, add on lot's of firepower if you want it to be a fighter, lot's of cargo for trade, and engines for speed. You're not supposed to have enough weight to house every upgrade, that's what makes it beautiful. this plane will fit every skyrate's fancy and will enable creativity within' skytopia.

kit it if you want, or double kit it even, it's gonna' cost near 80million for 2 kits on t5.

anyway, that's what I'd like to see happen.


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 Post subject: dum. dah dum dum!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:38 am 

Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 1:02 pm
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Oh baby, a new plane!!! :D

I want a really cool combat plane that is sure to out do everything.


here it is:

t5

max speed:700
stall speed: 200
Acceleration: 140

Cargo: 45
range: 1700

FP: 10
Maneuver: 7
armor: 6
ammo: 1500

3-4 crew

upgrade weight: 20000
Engine: 2
Guns: 3
Wings: 2
hull: 1

and let's see about those arcs shall we?

I want it to basically be a little personal blimp with frontal loki arcs and and side inger arcs

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 Post subject: Re: hee hee
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:02 am 
Senator

Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:11 am
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MEGATRON wrote:
I really like thorne's idea of the Upgradability t6, but I wish it could be

T5

max speed : 700
min speed:270
Accel: 180
Range: 1700

cargo: 50

Fp: 3
Maneuver:6
Armor: 6
Ammo: 1300

upgrade weight: 18000
engine:4
Guns: 4
Wings: 4
Hull: 4

4 crew

here's why I gave the stats I gave it:
for a while, I've been hoping for a tricked out UFO sort of thing with a bolo x2.5 arc. with such a huge range of area, I give it low FP, this plane is cool, because it's immensley upgradable, add on lot's of firepower if you want it to be a fighter, lot's of cargo for trade, and engines for speed. You're not supposed to have enough weight to house every upgrade, that's what makes it beautiful. this plane will fit every skyrate's fancy and will enable creativity within' skytopia.

kit it if you want, or double kit it even, it's gonna' cost near 80million for 2 kits on t5.

anyway, that's what I'd like to see happen.


your upgrade weight needs to be higher to accomodate the extra upgrade slots you've given the plane. But then that creates the problem of making it too good, i.e. everyone would choose the plane. I know i would *if* it had a higher upgrade cap, like 24000. If you keep it like you have it, I'd rather fly the Dauntless or Tbolt, more specialized true, but in this game more specialized is better.


Thorne

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:07 am 
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I think Pierce has it right. In my mind there is a little point in making another version of plane classes that already exist. I don't think we need another performance combat, or combat trader etc., since those planes already exist at each tier. The concept up upradability here really means something that can ACTUALLY be tweaked to people's small personal preferences. The way I see it, if what you REALLY want is pure performance, then the pure performance plane at that tier should still be the way to go. The goal of the Mantis should be to create a plane that sees as many different personal builds as possible. As it is now, most people either take a plane and make it better at what it already does (making a perf/trader faster and more roomy, or making a combat plane even more armored, gunned, and maneuverable). This is fine, and is the reason we have the different classes. But let be honest, there are usually only 1 or two "best" builds for each plane, and those usually involve putting all the best upgrades that will fit, with minor variation for personal taste (my alt's double kit vengence favors more maneuver over more FP, but the result is largely the same as BL's).
Kits have been a huge success and I think they do exactly what they were intended to do, ie. make lower tier planes that people fall in love with playable as higher tier versions of themselves. However, they DO reduce variety. The t2 kit models ALL involve simply 2 kits, meaning that people have the exact same stats on them. This is fine, but Mantis is aiming in another direction. Thus T5 is a good price range, since regular upgrades are expensive but prohibitively so (as with t6), and kits are nigh impossible (Thorne, I know you eventually plan to kit your t5, but remember, you are insane and spend 3 times the amount of time and effort as most people). It is unlikely that more than 3-4 people will accumulate the capital necessary to throw even a single kit on a t5 by the end of this round.
On to the actual design.
The key to making a plane the lends itself to many different "good" builds is to make weight and not slots the limiting factor. Weight is of course A limiting factor right now, but even so, it is usually the number of slots that people look at to determine what they can do with a plane. Performance planes go so fast because you can throw turbo AND LP AND 6BC on them (base speed plays a part, but slots are a must). By giving it 4x of every slot, people can actually mix and match different levels of upgrades for different purposes. As it stands now, you would NEVER waste the wing slot on a Vengence for anything but wings A (or B if you were favoring heavier gun upgrades), since you only have 1 slot. But with 4 of each slot, some slots will go unused due to weight, but people might end up actually putting in things like boring out, or streamlined hull.

I won't redo Pierces calculations, but I want to stress the importance of his range numbers. There is very little point to a trading plane that can't reach Uurwerk and Grottopolis (I know a few people are doing well in Kingfishers, but kitted trade planes FAR predominate precisely because they can reach these skylands).

Price wise, I will reiterate, t5 works. T6 would simply make it a plane that VERY few people every fully upgraded (which is silly if the point is to make a plane that encourages heavy and creative upgrading). t5 also justifies the range and base speed and cargo necessary to make the plane a realistic prospect for people who want to focus their build on performance or trade, respectively, since those upgrades are based on %.

As for arcs, this is very tricky. Pierce has pointed out before that "arcs are destiny" with a lot of planes. As such, I would like arcs that are neither debilitatingly crappy, nor overpoweringly good. Back arcs, if present, can't be too long. There is a reason performance planes aren't allowed to have them. So maybe something like a medium length simple front arc (like the one the Valkyrie used to have) and two 45 degree stubby back arcs (like smaller versions of the Bismarck's rear arcs. This would give it some back coverage, but coverage that you'd have to use carefully, and a front arc that was functional, without being insanely easy to use. The key is to make its effectiveness as dependent on the PLAYER'S upgrade choices as possible, so that the plane doesn't "lend" itself naturally to any specific play style.

Good luck Hoover, I look forward to seeing the new product.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:06 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:45 am
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That is an awesome post, Fex. You have the right idea.

I think there should be a lot of upgrade slots in each set, but have the same upgrade weight as the rest of the class that it's in. Additionally, I think it would be best to have all across the board average stats, maybe you could even average together all the numbers from the other planes, to find the true average. From there, you now have the room to put as many upgrades in whichever section as you want, but you're still limited to whatever the upgrade weight is for that class. I think it's a mistake to raise that weight limit. Thoughts?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:19 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:41 pm
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I was going to suggest a t6 combat trader, but from the posts above I think an upgradable t5 would be the best. It should have 16 slots, and the upgrade weight should be higher than any other plane in it's teir. Why the higher weight? If you want to make the mantis a combat plane, then you would use the gun slots, and maybe the other slots for an armor or manuver upgrade. But when you combare it's stats to an upgraded bismark, the bismark will have higher stats. Basicly, it needs to have a higher upgrade weight to compensate for it's lackluster and non-specialized stats. of course, if you want a combat/trader/performance plane, then it would be great, but you can always kit a bolo for that :wink:


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