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 Post subject: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:11 am 
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Alright, logging this and sticking it up so's people know what's happened.

The Gist:

Sadistica: ((Due to complaints the decision has made to retcon a lot of the stuff that happened recently. No slavery backstories anywhere, and as a direct result, Sadi never attacked Tort.))


The Rest:

Kanephren: ((by coincidence, i probably know nothing of whichever is to be wiped.))
Elvander: ((what did i miss?))
JackCross: ((what complaint?))
Eytan: ((lol, what happened?))
Elvander: ((and who is actually hrtr?))
Elvander: ((*here ))
Mahmoth: ((...Interesting. ))
JackCross: ((I've never heard about complaints around here or on forum.))
Mahmoth: ((I've heard a few in faction and IRC. Whole thing would've resulted in a vast and horrific tide of Drama, Woe and Amputations.))
Elvander: ((wait... wahat?))
Mahmoth: ((Two amputations, thusfar, with an apparently endless war on our hands.))
Sadistica: ((one amputation is entirely unrelated, though.))
JackCross: ((well, at least I thought it was interesting, and nobody really got hurt.))
JackCross: ((at least we can try to ease this incident.))
Mahmoth: ((It was interesting, to some extent, but was ultimately endless, and somewhat overdramatic for my tastes.))
Eytan: ((can i fin d out what happened somwhere?))
Sadistica: ((The complaints were about the fact that it was so heavily based on slavery, which is a bit .. not suitable for a game like Skyrates, to some.))
Mahmoth: ((Yeah, that's pretty much what I heard. Especially sex slavery, which was the root of the whole thing.))
Elvander: ((abwatf? ))
Elvander: ((I blame talon :P))
JackCross: ((maybe we should just put an end on this story quickly.))
Kanephren: ((if all else fails - blame Talon))
JackCross: ((will story become confusing if we take this plot out?))
Mahmoth: ((Retcons make everything more confusing.))
JackCross: ((Like: Bombing and Heartbreaking Aftermath will simpliy disappear.))
Mahmoth: ((Might be worth posting on the forums about it. It's a big thing that's being removed...))

*Refresh/Character switch break*

Anya Vyrdahl: ((did they actually pull out the slavery bit?))
Mahmoth: ((Looks like.))
Leofrin: ((Who made the decision was it to pull that out?))
JackCross: ((if they all agreed, then I have nothing to say.))
Anya Vyrdahl: ((power to the people))
JackCross: ((still very disappointed.))
Anya Vyrdahl: I'm not, having witnessed what a slippery slope this kinda thing can be
Anya Vyrdahl: ((ooc that))
Mahmoth: As long as everyone knows about it, we should be fine.
Mahmoth: ((ooc that as well.))
Elvander: ((i missed it all, so, no loss here :)))
Mahmoth: ((Good for you...))
JackCross: ((like what we always say on Anime: It became Black History!))
Anya Vyrdahl: ((I dunno, I've played adult games with strict 18 year age restrictions where that kind of thing was the norm, and it wasn't such an issue. but this is supposed to be a disney based family game, that's a little much for this environment))
Anya Vyrdahl: ((if you're looking for text based rp with those kind of themes, I can refer you someplace if it's still up and running :P))
Luciferian: -.-
Elvander: ((>.< ))
JackCross: ((So nobody got hurt.))
JackCross: ((Elena is fine.))
JackCross: ((Phedre didn't want to kill herself.))
Mahmoth: ((Not sure. Simi's still unlegged, as hers was unrelated. But yes. Noone got hurt, as noone got hurt anyway.))
JackCross: ((And I killed a very bad pirate instead of a slaver.))
Elvander: ((so /why/ did phed want to off herself//))
Mahmoth: ((Works. ))
Mahmoth: ((Rejected by Talon? >_>))
Anya Vyrdahl: ((drama? ))
Matt Daniels: ((DAmn, Anya, you beat me to it.))
JackCross: ((Well, if there's no such thing, Phedre probably won't want to kill herself.))
Mahmoth: ((We'll retcon that when s/he wakes.))
Elvander: ((bah, retcon makes the panda sad.))
Mahmoth: ((Yeah, this is one huge, sad panda.))
JackCross: ((and Jack is going to Tortuga only for looking jobs.))
Leofrin: ((I kind of agree on the 'depth' that it might've been a tad much for the environment, but that's something that really should've been thought out before the bomb was dropped on all of us. It's a hard explosion to fix back up. :)))
Sadistica: ((Phedre's home on Tort was still burned down, afaik - just by 'some very angry pirates'))
Leofrin: ((Soooo, there was no big pirate attack on the R&P then?))
Okol Zumabarota: ((just put it all down to a chronological hiccup caused by the unobtanium.))
JackCross: ((Ok, Elena was not a slave, just an orphan been raise up by pirates.))
Elvander: ((salvery is a good reason to fight, and it gives a good reason for there being so many {static} pirates on the trade rouites :P))
Mahmoth: ((Doesn't seem so. Xavier can still be here, and if we can fiddle with timing, that can be made part-reason for Phe's suicide, I think.))
Elvander: ((random acts of violence))
JackCross: ((And actually her pirates parent were nice people. Just don't want to let Elena become a pirate. So they give her to Grey?))
JackCross: ((Man, that's even more dramatic. :D))
Mahmoth: ((Possible. See what he thinks when he wakes. Sounds halfdecent, certainly.))
Eytan: ((why is slavery such a problem?))
Marcus Cunningham: ((Cause it's bad))
Anya Vyrdahl: ((disney based family game))
Elvander: ((not the slavery so much, as the /type/ of slavery))
Anya Vyrdahl: ((sex-slave industry = Cool Devices, not Tail Spin))
Eytan: ((so normal slaverys ok?))
Anya Vyrdahl: ((you're toeing the line :P))
Eytan: ((meh ))
Marcus Cunningham: ((Well, they're okay for a plot, but they're certainly not okay in the sense of tolerance.))
Eytan: ((lol ))
Mahmoth: ((Just a little over the top, indeed.))
Elvander: ((I can't see why not, as long as it's generic labour.))
Anya Vyrdahl: ((I wouldn't have a problem with backstory, but bringing it into a plot where slavers are attacking the place where EVERYONE is, so it's not even an option to 'not get involved' puts it over the edge))
Eytan: ((this is supposed to be a world, and wether people likeit or not, bad things happen. i get why you shouldnt get all visual with the descriptions, but bad stuff should be allowed, up to a point that is.))
Marcus Cunningham: ((True. Plot hammering is never anyone's idea of fun, except the person running the plot.))
Anya Vyrdahl: ((you can have been subjected to slavery, just don't subject me with your slavers :P))
Mahmoth: ((Bad stuff does happen. Masscres occur, nigh-everyone here has a tragic backstory, but sex slavery was always a few inches over the line.))
Elvander: ((aye ))
Eytan: ((lol. i think i really missed something. is this stuff recorded anywhere?))

Editings in:

JackCross: ((so if we are in this kind ofgame. is there nice pirate?))
Mahmoth: ((The ones who'll trade with us on Tort?))
Leofrin: ((I don't see why there couldn't be 'nice pirates'.))
Major Science: ((just to throw my two cents in - my objection to sex slaver is do we want that as part of the official "canon" of skyrates? IMO, no))
Leofrin: ((I mean, even TaleSpin, Okay, maybe Don Carnage wasn't 'Nice', but he was darned sociable at times.))
Anya Vyrdahl: ((the pirates are fairly nice. they take your goods and let you fly away every time :)))
Leofrin: ((I agree with the Major there.))
Marcus Cunningham: ((True Leo, it was Sher Khan who was the pirate in that show.))
JackCross: ((You got the point, Marcus :)))
Leofrin: ((It's just a hard bit to retcon, what with all battles because of it, but I thought it might be a bit over the line, myself.))
JackCross: ((and...Devs are all pirates! We love them!))
Major Science: ((haha, yeah, would phil enslave you for sex?))
Major Science: ((don't answer that))
JackCross: ((your question frighten me.))
Marcus Cunningham: ((How's about this last point, and then we stop this OOC madness: Schala and Knappekat's characters were seriously... SERIOUSLY affected by the exchange over the tavern. If the two of them are okay with this retcon, then I welcome it gladly. Otherwise, well, we may need to work on something new. Either way, the Vulture is on patrol around the Tavern's skylandette.))
JackCross: ((Ok, I guess our battle with Leofrin and Elvander still stand))
Leofrin: ((Yeah, Jack. That was unrelated.))
JackCross: ((Yes. OOC out.))
Knappekat: ((I for one am cool with the retcon - Knapp's angst can very easily come from normal everyday pirates.))


Last edited by Mahmoth on Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:01 am 
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A couple notes:

Jary is a "nice" pirate. You could ask him how he does it. =P

As far as slavery... Shriebeck's workforce is supposed to border on that (officially, in canon). But I do agree this was heading a little too far with it being sex slavery.

I actually would have been fine with it, if it hadn't been on public Radio and the forums. It's one of the things that makes me think we maybe should have a separate section for stuff like this, with a way for parents to lock younger kids out of it. For now, these kind of storylines should probably be taken to somewhere private (like IM).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:41 am 
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Personally I question the effect of having a big, public, forum-based thread about a subject that has been voted unsuitable for Skyrates, that had led to complaints, mentioning it by name, several times .. Not to mention a swear word in the title of the thread.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:19 am 
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I mainly put this up so that people would be aware of the retcon and we wouldn't have to inform everyone who came in. If needed, I can cut the post down to the gist of the thing (just the first line) and PM all those who want to know the details the above log. Apologies for any offense caused, as ever.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:30 am 
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Hooray retcons!!!


But I feel it is my duty to channel the enraged fanboy and scream bloody murder.

ahem:

Bloody Murder!!!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:35 pm 
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alliisara wrote:
As far as slavery... Shriebeck's workforce is supposed to border on that (officially, in canon).


Shriebeck's civilian work force are all free individuals. For that matter, all soldiers training in the brutal camps are there by their own choice. Certainly, the conditions may seem close to slavery, but the people there can leave at any time (with the only thing stopping them being the shame of failing out of Fuseli's cadre).

To address what is true and what is not in Skytopian history...

Slavery did exist at one point in Skytopian history, although it occurred far enough in the past to be before the time of most living Skytopians.

Nowadays, no real cases of slavery exist in Skytopia. The factions all find it to be abhorrent, and even most of the pirates refuse to participate in it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:16 am 

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:remygross: / :sad: / :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:54 pm 
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Why was this dug up and bumped with only emoticons? Are we now going to have a discussion about slavery in skytopia that we didn't have two years ago?

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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:57 pm 

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It has ramifications for Narua's character. See the Black Sheep thread.


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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:27 am 

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I'd point out that Gil's statement is a little ambiguous...there is "no slavery", but "almost no pirates" engage in it. That seems to establish that at least some few pirates do, and their connections with the underworld would imply an underground market of some sort. Which seems to be in line with Narua's storyline.

While it's made clear the factions abhor and have outlawed slavery, and that socially it's unacceptable, the same is true of real life in most nations. Yet a tiny sliver of slave trade manages to survive on the fringes of society. Could this be sufficient to prevent Narua's backstory from retconning itself?


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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:44 am 

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Overall, while I understand the desire to keep many aspects of the game kid-friendly, it's very limiting to many of the players. I think it's fair to say that slavery and/or subjugation - whether it's via out-and-out human ownership, economics or coercion of some sort - has always existed and still exists in many places today (even the good ol' U.S.A.). It seems a bit odd that we're fighting "pirates" and getting into accidents, etc., but eliminating what would seem to be an obvious related outcome of being in an imagined world where there are so many power struggles, outlaws and black markets... not to mention so little law enforcement. I mean, if you think about it, is it really appropriate for children to be flying planes and shooting massive guns at one another at all, whether or not they're dressed as cute animals? Or is that only appropriate because it's violence, whereas sexuality in any form is often questioned in RP? (Thank you, pilgrim founders of America.)

That said, even Disney pictures allude to lots of bad things happening without getting too specific. People get killed routinely, even cute animals. Heroines get threatened with being forced into unwilling marriages, etc. Following all that, I think it would be fair to allow at least carefully worded indications that bad things are happening, while remaining sensitive to those who would not appreciate graphic imagery.

Considering that the original declaration of modern slavery dates to a year ago, and some of the most interesting RP to go down in a while have included this element, maybe it wouldn't hurt to reopen the discussion. After all, one would hope that Skyrates would continue to evolve. Otherwise, are we all to assume this is a game where RP is appropriate for children only? In my mind, that would limit RP to the sort of rambling, inconsequential and non-character building type that has bored many good writers out of the game. Perhaps people who are interested in building dramatic story lines and intriguing characters should be encouraged, if within certain agreed-upon limits, as there is no other real sustaining factor to the game, once you get to a certain level. In a case like this, I see an effort on one hand to involve people with a new arc like the Hidden Fleet, but perhaps too many restrictions that are off-putting to many who would like to be more involved. Hey, it's not like anyone has been trying to post porn or serial killings, here... and I think anyone who was would be drummed out fairly quickly by the majority.

Maybe it still wouldn't be a bad idea to have separate areas - or even board topic with warnings on them - for people over a certain age. If we can ask for people's email addresses, certainly an "I am over [whatever age]" checkbox wouldn't be too hard to add. Then you leave it to the parents of the users to police the appropriateness of the stories.

Just my thoughts. Regardless, I enjoy Narua's backstory and the way it's branched out into other plots. I would very much like to see it continued at least to a point of some resolution, canon or not.

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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Seeing as how I was a large part of the last discussion two years ago, I'm going to lay this down.

Yes Gil's post here is a little vague, HOWEVER, all the discussions with the devs that led up to this post, were very clear. There is NO slavery, period. Not in any form, on any skyland. It's not so much a keeping it family friendly issue as it is a sign of the advancement of the society the devs want portrayed for their game. And that is, of course, their absolute right.


So that being said, we need to let this thread die.

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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:59 pm 

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Gee, thanks for being the Irrefutable Voice of the Devs, Phedre. We can all stop posting or looking for any evolution of the game, now.

If we are to use your well-meaning suggestion that Narua is meant to come from a skyland outside of Skytopia - which is possible, I suppose, although also clearly non-canon, having a tenuous connection to the rest of the game - it does allow her slavery background to exist. Why not then, however, just start making up whatever histories we like and placing them outside the bounds of the known map? I actually don't mind the idea, but I have a feeling there would still be cries of "non-canon" and "inappropriate" soon to follow.

We all want to devs to be happy and appreciate their hard work, talents, and ownership of the game. I think that in a game where role-playing goes on, however, there needs to be room for growth and debate. Otherwise, why have RP at all?

Additionally, I resubmit that it is preposterous to propose a society in which there are pirates, black markets, powerful factions and guns and no real subjugation of those lower in power. While the name Skytopia implies Utopia, the presence of such things indicates that the society is much more realistic. Heck, most of the denizens of SR have invented personal histories which include kidnapping, maiming or death at the hands of pirates. Humans routinely exploit other beings, and animals are often predators. Even Disney will show you that.

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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:55 pm 
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If we are to assume a universal tech level at or around that of the Western world around WWII slavery should more or less have banned itself. You see, paying people less than living wage is cheaper than feeding/clothing people at a cost necessarily equivalent to a living wage. </cynicism> But really, in an industrialized society slavery just isn't (ironically) economical. Well, not unless we want to get into some trades that I don't think the devs want us to get into (just because it's the world's oldest profession doesn't mean it's approved of).

I think I've made my position on the rather dystopian nature of Skytopia clear. But dystopia doesn't necessarily include slavery.

Possibly related, Narua's character is riddled with issues ranging from sidestepping of canon to outright disregard/conflict last time I checked. Not a personal attack, the character in a vacuum is pretty well formed, in the setting of Skyrates however, there are substantial issues that need resolution (or were, I haven't kept up recently, ignore this if something other than the "I came from over there" panacea has been done to keep the history in line with canon).

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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:25 pm 

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*shrugs* Gunnar comes from a non-canon skyland with a Second/Third Reich history (Imperial Germany being what the Nazis considered the Second Reich), complete with bloody fascists and an oppressed underclass of working slaves. Liberated since, but that's still the backstory. To the fascists, of course, such a system was necessary for the survival of the colony --- which, originally, was true. Later, that just became the excuse for holding onto the power.

As for RL, even in an industrialized society, slave labor has potential value simply because the employer is eliminating most or all of the profit gained by the employee. Germany and the Soviet Union both used slavery extensively during WWII for wartime production.

Of course the simple trump card, as already mentioned, is what the devs say. They are the only ones who can make anything canon, and everything else is merely fanfiction. Then again, that's what nearly all of the roleplay is, anyways.


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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:18 am 

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Good points, Gunnar. Most RP ties loosely at best to canon, and retcons later if necessary. There's no reason many things, tastefully done, can't continue as is, as they don't affect the overall themes. If the devs take issue with an individual backstory, of course, that's another issue. It seems more often than not they allow a somewhat free hand to RPers, which is as it should be, in order to allow good storytelling.

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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:00 pm 
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Gunnar Matheson wrote:
*shrugs* Gunnar comes from a non-canon skyland with a Second/Third Reich history (Imperial Germany being what the Nazis considered the Second Reich), complete with bloody fascists and an oppressed underclass of working slaves. Liberated since, but that's still the backstory. To the fascists, of course, such a system was necessary for the survival of the colony --- which, originally, was true. Later, that just became the excuse for holding onto the power.

As for RL, even in an industrialized society, slave labor has potential value simply because the employer is eliminating most or all of the profit gained by the employee. Germany and the Soviet Union both used slavery extensively during WWII for wartime production.


Slave labor in those instances was driven not by cost incentives but that they literally didn't have the man power, also if you don't care if your slave labor lives or dies that means you can support them below sustainable levels, but that's expensive if you don't have free access to new slaves.

The whole point of my previous post was that if you employ slave labor you need to feed, clothe and house that labor. However, what many mining companies (amongst others) discovered is that you can pay people less than it costs to house or feed them as a company and just hire new ones when the old ones kick it. It's all the upside of slavery without the social stigma or up front acquisition and security costs!

These two combine to mean that it depends which is plentiful: work or labor. If labor is plentiful it's cheaper to pay someone a pittance than buy slaves. If work is plentiful you steal slave labor not because it's cheap but because it's the only way to increase your work force.

I tend to ignore origins that are strictly non-canon, but that's a personal call. I would like to note that strictly non-canon is not the same as not strictly canon. Basically, in reference to geographic origins, if all these skylands "beyond known Skytopia" were really close enough for an average plane to hit they wouldn't be outside Skytopia, especially given the exploratory bent of a number of active Skytopians.

Tactful skirting around the edges of canon is useful, but deciding you don't like canon and inventing someplace "just off the map" that fits your bill is pretty weak on the creative front; creativity often means doing the most with what you've got.

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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:06 pm 

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Quote:
By BL
Tactful skirting around the edges of canon is useful, but deciding you don't like canon and inventing someplace "just off the map" that fits your bill is pretty weak on the creative front; creativity often means doing the most with what you've got. l


By that definition, the origins of both Brown and Violet are rather non-creative.


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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Well, yes. Is that a surprise? The emphasis for the Court and the Order was never placed upon the creativity of their origins.


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 Post subject: Re: The Big Bombing/Slavery Retcon
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:59 pm 
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To clarify,

The only reason a I suggested a non-skytopian place, is because the devs have clearly set up that there are other places out there, i.e. the aforementioned Court and Order. If they can make it out here is it totally unreasonable other people have? Maybe they didn't fly, perhaps they had a boat. Just saying...

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