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Does the RP channel need mods?
Yes 32%  32%  [ 14 ]
No 68%  68%  [ 30 ]
Total votes : 44
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:23 pm 

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If people are this disrupted by it, I feel that the RP tab needs to be canned and replaced with an off-site IRC channel where the RP people can bicker and attempt to sort things out between themselves. That way, it has no bearing on the radio at all.

Plus, the devs are already too busy to have to find ways to sort this kind of crap out as well, IMO, so just put it in a place where they don't have to deal with it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:59 am 

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Axel Nagant wrote:
kind of crap out as well
Watch your language Axel.

Also once again I find myself disagreeing with your post. Not everyone can, or wants to, use IRC and your solution of "there's a problem, so close it" is Bennite, or quite possibly a Luddite, solution to the issue. To abolish what's there rather than seeking to fix the problems.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:29 am 

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Tethran, you should probably pipe down some. I know you're obviously still angry at each other, but last thing anyone wants is another shouting match. The same goes for you, Axel.

I think the RP situation has gotten a little ridiculous, as far as all the gunfights go. But it's freeform, so it is dictated by the whims of the RPers. Frankly, I'd rule in favor of the older players, as they are the ones who have put most of the effort into setting up the scene. If any mod-type or warning functions were to be bestowed upon Players, I'd say give them to those above a certain number of flight hours. I suppose we could wait and see how things play out; unless RP continues to degenerate we shouldn't need mods. And if it does appear to need modding, then that's a whole other can of worms we open.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:39 am 

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Moros wrote:
Tethran, you should probably pipe down some. I know you're obviously still angry at each other, but last thing anyone wants is another shouting match. The same goes for you, Axel.

I think the RP situation has gotten a little ridiculous, as far as all the gunfights go. But it's freeform, so it is dictated by the whims of the RPers. Frankly, I'd rule in favor of the older players, as they are the ones who have put most of the effort into setting up the scene. If any mod-type or warning functions were to be bestowed upon Players, I'd say give them to those above a certain number of flight hours. I suppose we could wait and see how things play out; unless RP continues to degenerate we shouldn't need mods. And if it does appear to need modding, then that's a whole other can of worms we open.


Mod parent up. I quite agree.

An important point to consider, Axel, is that RP is a big part of Skyrates and certainly something that won't go away just by removing the RP tab. RP would move back to World (like it used to be) and then no one would be happy. I don't think the devs are likely to hand down a 'no more RP' ruling either. That leaves us with limited choices that basically boil down to 3rd-party solution (IRC) or a discrete chat interface (separate SWF or Java chat app). Both of those are likely more effort than the devs want to put into chat right now.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:46 am 
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no one will convince me that mods are needed without bringing conflicts and arguments to my attention in private first. when i am no longer able to respond to things promptly, i will consider raising the issue with the team. but until then, as long as two of us can basically manage stuff, that's all that we're going to deploy.

moderation in general is an issue where i have more say than usual, simply by benefit of the fact that i am the dev who monitors the radio the most. so issues like this will probably go through me first.

neglecting my teammates' role in this for the moment, there's still the matter of who would we choose to be a moderator? my qualifications list begins like this:
- being online a lot, participating in various channels
- (probably) an older, more established player--but not necessarily. i just need a sense that you'll be around for a while
- community respect which is based on goodwill, not volume
- a perfect record with regards to acting maturely. this extends to not only word choice and general behavior, but the level of passion you exhibit in debate, etc. if you are the kind of person who becomes personally involved in every dispute that affects you, i'm glad to have you as a member of the community... but i don't want someone like that to be charged with referee duty
- i would tend to favor people who are older in real life
- i want someone who can recognize a joke for what it is, and treat it as such. we intentionally use as little force as possible in moderation/administration.


i'm telling you now, you probably don't want to be an official moderator. and if you do, i probably don't want you to be one; moderation is a complex, messy thing that is nigh impossible to do perfectly. it's an immense chore that is only bearable if you do it out of love and respect for the community. if you see it as anything else, i'd worry about whose best interests you have in mind.

-PL-


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:31 am 

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Quote:
Watch your language Axel.


Last time I checked, the word "crap" was not profanity.

Moros wrote:
Tethran, you should probably pipe down some. I know you're obviously still angry at each other, but last thing anyone wants is another shouting match. The same goes for you, Axel.


I was mainly focusing on the discussion last time, not so much Tethran's stuff (I have been largely ignoring him, and I am no longer laying my troll traps, as even though they have helped me stop trolls, the firestorms the trolls create is no longer worth it, IMO.).

Quote:
An important point to consider, Axel, is that RP is a big part of Skyrates and certainly something that won't go away just by removing the RP tab. RP would move back to World (like it used to be) and then no one would be happy. I don't think the devs are likely to hand down a 'no more RP' ruling either. That leaves us with limited choices that basically boil down to 3rd-party solution (IRC) or a discrete chat interface (separate SWF or Java chat app). Both of those are likely more effort than the devs want to put into chat right now.


Isn't it possible for the players to make it, like the current unofficial IRC one? I am not saying get rid of it, but get it off the radio if people continue to find it problematic.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:42 am 
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Axel Nagant wrote:
Isn't it possible for the players to make it, like the current unofficial IRC one? I am not saying get rid of it, but get it off the radio if people continue to find it problematic.


roleplay wherever you want, i don't think anyone on the team will have any problems with that.

-PL-


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:49 am 
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Quote:
Isn't it possible for the players to make it, like the current unofficial IRC one? I am not saying get rid of it, but get it off the radio if people continue to find it problematic.

I don't really RP much (at least, the full-blown style under discussion here), but I'd guess this would be unsatisfying, since art is art because it has an audience and because it doesn't ask that audience's prior written permission.

That relying on the good taste of the participants who are performing for us is messy, unpredictable, and occasionally disappointing is, I think, rather the point.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:08 am 

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Zabrak! makes an excellent point in casting roleplay as art; the final result is in many ways exactly that.

The dilemma is not "roleplay or no roleplay," not is it a choice between "role play here or there." The issue is this: different participants have different views on what the Skyrates milieu is, and what constitutes roleplay that is, at a minimum, appropriate.

Differing opinions on these matters is not a problem. What appears to be a problem is the ways participants negotiate these difference. Of late, much of this negotiation seems to consist of pulling guns or knives or such in character, and griping, sniping, and generally taking things personally out of character.

I do not think that appointing moderators is a particularly good solution at the moment, nor do I support the idea of shifting roleplay away from its present place. Rather, I believe that we need to start talking about the process, so that we can better enjoy the art that results from it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:54 pm 
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phil wrote:
- a perfect record with regards to acting maturely. this extends to not only word choice and general behavior, but the level of passion you exhibit in debate, etc. if you are the kind of person who becomes personally involved in every dispute that affects you, i'm glad to have you as a member of the community... but i don't want someone like that to be charged with referee duty


I'd like to meet this person so I could learn from them. I try, but wow, perfect I am not.

phil wrote:
i'm telling you now, you probably don't want to be an official moderator. and if you do, i probably don't want you to be one; moderation is a complex, messy thing that is nigh impossible to do perfectly. it's an immense chore that is only bearable if you do it out of love and respect for the community. if you see it as anything else, i'd worry about whose best interests you have in mind.


Isn't there a quote out there about he who is most eager to lead is least fit or something? Not that it isn't often true...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:15 pm 
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Burrito Loco wrote:
phil wrote:
- a perfect record with regards to acting maturely.


I'd like to meet this person so I could learn from them. I try, but wow, perfect I am not.


It's a hard standard, practically everyone is a little puerile now and again, myself included. More than, "never let a naughty word or reference escape your lips," I mean, "never lose your cool in a stressful situation or argument." Honestly, the appropriateness of word choice and links or references is a judgment call, and I wouldn't hold it against someone if their judgment differed from mine somewhat. But sustaining a long, insulting, and ultimately pointless argument (for example) only needs to happen once in order to demonstrate one's difficulty with navigating a stressful situation--such as frequently arises in moderating.

it's like belaying in rock climbing; i don't feel out of line in insisting that my belayer has never dropped anyone. obviously, the severity is totally different, but the basic idea is similar.

-PL-


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:35 pm 

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Zabrak! wrote:
Quote:
Isn't it possible for the players to make it, like the current unofficial IRC one? I am not saying get rid of it, but get it off the radio if people continue to find it problematic.

I don't really RP much (at least, the full-blown style under discussion here), but I'd guess this would be unsatisfying, since art is art because it has an audience and because it doesn't ask that audience's prior written permission.

That relying on the good taste of the participants who are performing for us is messy, unpredictable, and occasionally disappointing is, I think, rather the point.


Personally, I would consider RP far from being art (no offense intended), but my main point is that if it is really causing all of these problems people speak of, I feel that it perhaps has to be pushed to somewhere where it won't interfere with the radio interface.

*EDIT* I can't really think of anything else without wasting dev time. Either move it somewhere or just wait for this odd stuff to fizzle out.

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Last edited by Axel Nagant on Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:54 pm 
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phil wrote:
<snip>


Very well then, that I agree with.

However, you haven't ever wanted to experience the joy of free fall from a cliff face a few hundred feet up? I hear it's exhilarating!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:29 am 
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phil wrote:
Burrito Loco wrote:
phil wrote:
- a perfect record with regards to acting maturely.


I'd like to meet this person so I could learn from them. I try, but wow, perfect I am not.


It's a hard standard, practically everyone is a little puerile now and again, myself included. More than, "never let a naughty word or reference escape your lips," I mean, "never lose your cool in a stressful situation or argument." Honestly, the appropriateness of word choice and links or references is a judgment call, and I wouldn't hold it against someone if their judgment differed from mine somewhat. But sustaining a long, insulting, and ultimately pointless argument (for example) only needs to happen once in order to demonstrate one's difficulty with navigating a stressful situation--such as frequently arises in moderating.

it's like belaying in rock climbing; i don't feel out of line in insisting that my belayer has never dropped anyone. obviously, the severity is totally different, but the basic idea is similar.

-PL-


If we have to have a mod, I vote Burrito Loco (Sorry Pappa Rito..), he's the closest thing to all of this I can think of.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:45 am 
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Mairi wrote:
If we have to have a mod, I vote Burrito Loco (Sorry Pappa Rito..), he's the closest thing to all of this I can think of.


thank you kindly for the vote of support for BL, but I'll put in a gentle reminder that there are several more steps between here and there:

1. someone brings details to my attention about specific cases where moderation was needed but my teammates and I were unable to provide it
2. we establish that this is an ongoing problem, that the community has grown enough that it can't police itself through peer pressure and /ignore
3. no other existing members of the team are able to take up the slack and work out a rotation or something
4. we decide to promote players to mod status (as opposed to, say, working with a third party)
5. we decide to open up moderation selection to a nomination/voting based system

like i said, i'm delighted that you feel enough trust in BL to single him out by name. it's that kind of working together which gives us a fighting chance at all--but i'd really rather that the rest of this thread didn't turn into an impromptu nomination convention with more seriousness than is really warranted at the moment.

-PL-


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:49 am 
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Yup. No mods is fine for now IMO.

As it goes now if something is especially obnoxious, it usually isn't to hard to pretend it doesn't exist until it gets bored and goes away or decides to mutually ignore me too.

Yayy!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:32 am 

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Burrito Loco wrote:
Isn't there a quote out there about he who is most eager to lead is least fit or something? Not that it isn't often true...


Well, Douglas Adams wrote that 'anyone capable of getting themselves made president should on no account be allowed to have the job'. I agree with that.

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