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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:40 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:53 pm
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Servicing when your plane is in worse condition means you get more good repair bonuses. Interesting. So, players can choose how many status effects to tote around. If you always service before getting a bad status effect, you'll never have any. If you always wait until you have five bad effects, you'll always have five effects, either good or bad.

Sunrunner wrote:
In that case repair is definitely a required part of the game. I think it's bad design, and potentially suicidal.

Suicidal? It doesn't sound nearly that bad to me. A single status effect would be at worst "unfortunate," you would get at most one every other day, and you can queue servicing for when you're asleep. Skills and mechanics make bad effects and servicing even less frequent, and the "good repair" effects mean you'll often have a blend of good and bad effects, which will give the game more variety.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:41 am 
Snuggler

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Sunrunner wrote:
What happens when you hit zero? Do negatives keep piling up? If not, I can imagine a situation where I eventually am carrying 10 modifiers that all reduce my influence or combat profits, and at that point I can stop caring about them.


Likely, if a player is at 0%, they may continue accruing negatives each day (say, an additional negative each day). However, repairing would never give you more than a set maximum number of good repair effects.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:43 am 
Snuggler

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Sunrunner wrote:
In that case repair is definitely a required part of the game. I think it's bad design, and potentially suicidal.


Yes. Repair is a required portion of the game.

I'm completely willing to discuss the quality of the design though. As to the suicidal nature of it, I'm happy to chat about it. I'd say that real time flight also seems a little crazy :)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:50 am 
Snuggler

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KarHallarn wrote:
Hmmm, then you're going about this wildly wrong. If you want people to establish a helping relationship then the last thing you want to do is offer major strategic benefits to helping. To use your example, you ask your teacher about something and they say "Okay, but you have to tell the school board who helped you so I'll have a better chance at a raise".


I'm going to agree and disagree. Extremely major critical factors would likely be a bad thing. Small to meaningless factors would be...meaningless. You can depend slightly on people's good will, but for maximum effectiveness, you need a little carrot on a stick.

Quote:
Making the problem worse is that the bonus for the mentors is dependent upon how well the apprentices perform, which leads to a situation where mentors who want the most advantage should be shopping around for the best apprentices, when it should be apprentices shopping around for the mentor who helps them the best.


Really, what you want is a back and forth.

The mentor should be finding and encouraging apprentices who will get into mission running and playing the game. (There's a thought. Apprentices who get experience perhaps just for any playing of the game. Not just missions).

Apprentices should find mentors who are around and will answer their questions.

Quote:
I would much rather have mentors get a bonus for the number of apprentices rather than the quality of the apprentices, though this again leads to the "spam as many people as possible to get the biggest advantage" situation.


Yeah, that's much more Mafia Wars/Facebook badness.

Quote:
Actually, my ideal situation would be that whatever benefit mentors get has absolutely no relation to gameplay at all (extra ratings because they're so wise, for instance) so they'd only be helping people to help them.


Experience in this game and other games has shown that while altruism is good, to encourage more players into it a small amount of gameplay benefits is helpful. Doesn't have to be HUGE mind you.

Quote:
Additionally, apprentices (at least the newbies) don't need a speed boost, they need an "undo last mistake" button. Giving the mentors the ability to transfer a couple thousand G-squigs to the apprentice would probably help with that, but the frequency and amount of transfer would have to be limited to prevent abuse.


An 'undo last mistake' button is a huge benefit and an engineering nightmare.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:53 am 
Snuggler

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Marcus Langley wrote:
I can only really see this leading to a situation where new players are dogpiled by requests when they speak up for the first time, which I would think is more likely to chase them off than help them get into the game.


This is tricky to judge. At the moment, a player can have (at most) 5 active requests, and may cancel/ignore them as necessary. I'm not sure about chasing them off. In the games where I've seen such systems applied, it seemed a little flattering so long as it didn't create an inbox of 100 messages.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:59 pm 
Smashing Pumpkins

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Chesterfield Taft wrote:
The existing system is not working/meeting the goals. I agree.


Wait a sec. Are bonuses already in effect? Because I checked several days ago, and my mentor obviously wasn't getting any inf when I completed missions (he is in my faction, but the total we had at that skyland was exactly equal to what my logs said I had just earned). I can check again in about an hour.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:19 pm 
Messenger of Service

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Kalin wrote:
Wait a sec. Are bonuses already in effect? Because I checked several days ago, and my mentor obviously wasn't getting any inf when I completed missions (he is in my faction, but the total we had at that skyland was exactly equal to what my logs said I had just earned). I can check again in about an hour.


Currently you need to be an apprentice for a day before seeing any effect.

And best I can tell, the current system only gives a raw bonus to your Mentor's total reputation, not to any specific skyland goals.

That is one piece of the proposed changes. Apprentices would level up in quality and the mentor would get an x% boost to their INF runs based on their apprentices' levels. (like having extra diplomats i guess)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:27 pm 
Smashing Pumpkins

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Turbo Lance wrote:
And best I can tell, the current system only gives a raw bonus to your Mentor's total reputation, not to any specific skyland goals.


Which I can't test because he dropped off the leader board even before I did. And since the only reason I accepted the apprenticeship was to help my faction, I guess I may as well resign.
...
And time of new flight legs didn't change at all (even after refreshing), so it seems the current system has zero in game effects after all.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:16 pm 
Explorer

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:33 pm
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Kalin wrote:
Turbo Lance wrote:
And best I can tell, the current system only gives a raw bonus to your Mentor's total reputation, not to any specific skyland goals.


Which I can't test because he dropped off the leader board even before I did. And since the only reason I accepted the apprenticeship was to help my faction, I guess I may as well resign.
...
And time of new flight legs didn't change at all (even after refreshing), so it seems the current system has zero in game effects after all.


I believe the condition system and the apprenticeship changes are both still "planned".

-c.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:07 am 
Developer

Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:05 am
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I'd like to introduce my little friend. His name is Strawman:
Chesterfield Taft wrote:
Think of it a bit like asking your entire assembled school, versus a single trusted teacher.

Chesterfield Taft wrote:
You can depend slightly on people's good will, but for maximum effectiveness, you need a little carrot on a stick.
Really?
Exhibit A:
  • The current Help Radio tab.
    • An excellent and effective place to get assistance. If I was new to the game*, I would be tremendously more likely to "toss out" my question - as sophomoric as it may be - to whomever is online at the moment. The more potential answer-ers there are, the more accurate and helpful the answers may be. Especially when Player B (and Player C and Player D) can clarify (and verify) Players A's response.
Exhibit B:
*Note: Although I've been playing since SR1 and am familiar with (virtually) the entire contents of the Skybrary and the Compendium, I still frequently have "noobish" questions. I could PM someone, like BL or Keyo for a question about Combat or Sunrunner for a question about Trade, but I default to the Help tab. If I had a Mentor, I doubt I would ask him or her - even if they were online at the moment.

As others have pointed out, I too fail to see the advantage/need for such a convoluted and confusing system.

EDIT: +a dash of tasty sarcasm. :razz:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:12 am 
Messenger of Service

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Calvin wrote:
I'd like to introduce my little friend. His name is Strawman:
Chesterfield Taft wrote:
Think of it a bit like asking your entire assembled school, versus a single trusted teacher.

Chesterfield Taft wrote:
You can depend slightly on people's good will, but for maximum effectiveness, you need a little carrot on a stick.
Really?


Even though it might put my faction at a further disadvantage, I am fine having some sort of well-designed new element to the game that has cooperative INF running boosts between a "mentor" and "apprentice". As a stand alone idea, it has consequences but is a creative new dynamic that could be fun.

However, if the main reason for the change is to promote a real mentor-apprentice relationship that helps guide newbies through the world, then I fear the devs are creating possible bad consequences merely to solve a problem that does not exist.

I remember there was a survey many of us took last round about the game and priorities. Did that surface anything that showed new players needed a mentorship dynamic?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:19 pm 
Helpful

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Calvin wrote:
The current Help Radio tab. An excellent and effective place to get assistance.

There is a bit of a trick in conveying this to new players, though -- there's no a priori reason to assume Skyrates Radio is going to be nearly as helpful as it has become, so players familiar with much less helpful chats elsewhere might not even consider checking it.

Not that mentorship solves that even a bit.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:56 pm 
Snuggler

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Kalin wrote:
Turbo Lance wrote:
And best I can tell, the current system only gives a raw bonus to your Mentor's total reputation, not to any specific skyland goals.


Which I can't test because he dropped off the leader board even before I did. And since the only reason I accepted the apprenticeship was to help my faction, I guess I may as well resign.
...
And time of new flight legs didn't change at all (even after refreshing), so it seems the current system has zero in game effects after all.


The speed bonus is not in effect. The reputation bonus is.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:44 pm 
Smashing Pumpkins

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Chesterfield Taft wrote:
The speed bonus is not in effect. The reputation bonus is.


And where does the bonus go? Because I checked and it definitely isn't going to the mentor's faction. If it's working for other people, check to see if this another case of the server ignoring the new factions.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:06 pm 
Explorer

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:23 pm
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Kalin wrote:
Chesterfield Taft wrote:
The speed bonus is not in effect. The reputation bonus is.


And where does the bonus go? Because I checked and it definitely isn't going to the mentor's faction. If it's working for other people, check to see if this another case of the server ignoring the new factions.


It's supposed to be personal reputation on that Skyland only, not factional reputation.

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