Register / Log in

Server Costs Jun

Ends in 12 days 0%
It is currently Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:30 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:31 pm 
Cupid

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:29 pm
Posts: 1391
Faction: Jade Hand

Offline
I am posting this as-written for Ikkyo, since he is unable to log into the Skyrates forum.

~Kippei


For this system, I’ve tried to take into account both historic performance and current trends to create a tier system that would give players an increased number of options, especially at endgame, and to encourage potential exploration of multiple paths. This system brings back the hybrid planes, but only at every other tier, with moderately strong performances in their two strengths and weak performance in the other. This is interspersed with the pure planes. Players who don’t like one or the other can skip tiers, or else they can work through the tiers one at a time and just pick their favorite options. Distribution of upgrade points can further differentiate the planes as well. I’ve discussed this system with several other veterans who’ve enjoyed tinkering with planes and layouts, and we all agree that this allows for a lot of flexibility and hopefully an improved game.

T1: Thor-Performance/Combat, Kittyhawk-Performance/Trader, Mastiff-Combat/Trader

The Thor has never fit in well with the Performance tree, but its design makes it perfectly suitable as a low-tier P/C plane. The Kittyhawk and Mastiff have always been low-tier, with the KH being a light and mobile trader, and the Mastiff being a slow but tenacious plane.

T2: Marauder-Performance, Phantom-Combat, Nomad-Trader, Excelsior-Upgrade

The Marauder excels in its current state as a low-tier Performance plane and can stay where it is. The Phantom has generally been a solid plane, but there are so many popular combat planes that there was really no other room for it. As it used to be the T1 combat option, it’s not too much of a stretch to put it here. The Nomad is a good low-tier trader, and with its customary rear cannon, it’s best put in the lower tiers as an introduction to tail fighting. The Excelsior suffers from sprite and design issues, and we felt the only way it would be flown were if it could be considered a solid investment. If upgrades can hold it over for a tier or two, that might help redeem it.

T3: Valkyrie-Performance/Combat, Requin-Performance/Trader, Cyclops-Combat/Trader

The Valkyrie here is something of a throwback, as it was formerly a T2 P/C plane under the 6-tier system, and its light design allows it to serve well in that capacity again here. The Requin is much the same as ever in this incarnation, as is the Cyclops.

T4: Chapparal-Performance, Seahawk-Combat, Halifax-Trader, Seafire-Upgrade

The Chapparal’s placement is a throwback to its position in the 3-tier system as the Performance/Upgrade plane. We all felt it never reached its potential there, and would like to see how it looks when given its time to shine. The Seahawk makes a solid combat investment as always. The Halifax was traditionally a low-tier Trader, but we felt the Nomad better placed at T2 for reasons described above. The Seafire is again a throwback to the 3-tier system when it was the T2 Trader/Upgrade plane. With the arcs its had throughout its history, we feel it can make a strong statement as a mid-tier Upgrade plane.

T5: Mk II-Performance/Combat, Cetacea-Performance/Trader, Barracuda-Combat/Trader

The Mk II has always been an upgraded Valkyrie, so this seems like a logical choice. The Cetacea was once the T2 Performance/Trader in the 3-tier system, and we feel its design makes it a competitive choice in that regard. The Barracuda has been proven to be effective as a slow but well-armed blimp, and we feel this finally gives it a competitive placement that doesn’t break the game the way it used to as a high-tier Performance/Trader.

T6: Loki-Performance, Vengeance-Combat, Bullfrog-Trader, Mantis-Upgrade

More catering to history here. The Loki, Vengeance, and Bullfrog have always been competitive mid-tier choices in their specialties and will continue to serve well there; the Loki as an agile and capable speedster, the Vengeance with its cannon of doom, and the Bullfrog with a solid hull. The Mantis was originally introduced as a mid-tier Upgrade plane and is a perfect fit to take that place again.

T7: Havoc-Performance/Combat, Barashiki-Performance/Trader, Lancaster-Combat/Trader

Recent performance has shown the Havoc makes a capable high-tier choice, and its history as a P/C plane made its placement obvious. The Barashiki was originally designed as a high-tier Performance/Trader, and we felt it would be best if it took its rightful place there. The Lancaster has a history as a C/T plane, and we felt its popularity (and recent performance) merited a placement in this tier.

T8: Nova-Performance, Hades-Combat, Leviathan-Trader, Bolo-Upgrade

Pretty unanimous agreement here among the brain trust. The Nova has always been a very competitive Performance plane and we felt it was the best choice at T8. Similar reasoning for the Hades in Combat. We all agreed that the Kingfisher worked better as the ultimate trader than the Leviathan, but there’s no denying the blimp’s power. And the Bolo has always been that quirky plane that could do almost anything it wanted, so we felt we’d let it go crazy here.

T9: Ingersoll-Performance, Thunderbolt-Performance/Combat, Avenger-Combat, Bismarck-Combat/Trader, Kingfisher-Trader, Spectre-Performance/Trader, Dauntless-Upgrade.

And at last we come to the end, with some popular planes, all designed to excel in their respective categories. Not much needs to be said here; we simply hope that the expanded array of options gives a broader scope to the endgame and sees fewer cookie-cutter plans in the sky.

I personally feel that this system is a stable one, and that with a set tier structure, the devs and testers can better focus on refining balance and finding a niche and an arc pattern that work for each individual plane. I’ve put a lot of thought and effort into this and gotten good feedback from nearly the entire player base. It’s my hope that you feel this system is worth implementing.

--Keyo/Ikkyo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:48 pm 
Dev Eyepatch

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:32 am
Posts: 1040
Faction: Flight School
Offline
This. Very much this. I approve wholeheartedly.

_________________
Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to. What we do in life, echoes in eternity.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:50 pm 
Flirt

Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:01 am
Posts: 470
Faction: Azure League

Offline
I see no problems with this, 100% support.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:16 pm 
Helpful

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:32 pm
Posts: 1767
Faction: Azure League

Offline
As always, my full support. Forgive me an embedded image?
Image
(also at http://a.imageshack.us/img704/7923/keyo.png)

(By the way, you speak of the old three-tier system. The latest version of that I have is the one with only eleven planes -- could you spare me a list of the final version? Edit: Got it, thanks. =D)


Last edited by Eskay on Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:39 pm 
Messenger of Service

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:08 am
Posts: 797
Location: Definitely NOT at work* (*=not true for all values of work)
Faction: Flight School
Offline
I really like all of this....ok, i won't hold back

I LOVE all of this


I would guess that most players spend more time in a T9 than the other Tiers combined.

While some players (me) might just maximize speed, the simple act of having more T9 planes could make a big difference in the end-game interestingness.

_________________
Cardinal of the Earthen Order :brown:
Governor of Earthbreach, Olio, and Luz


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:40 pm 
Helpful

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:32 pm
Posts: 1767
Faction: Azure League

Offline
Grouping tiers into Low, Middle, and High, there are only two unprecedented tier placements here. The Chapparal and Halifax are assigned to the middle tier, where previously they have always been low-tier planes. I think that's fine.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:12 pm 
False Moustache

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:11 am
Posts: 102
Location: Left. LEFT. Other left.
Faction: Independent

Offline
I like this. I really, really like this. All my support.

_________________
"That's why a bear can rest at ease
With just the bare necessities of life" - Phil Harris, Bruce Reitherman
Proud to be a black sheep.
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:47 pm 
Smashing Pumpkins

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:22 pm
Posts: 672
Faction: Independent

Offline
Maybe it's just me, but in the last two rounds it seems that once you hit the middle tiers, the trade planes do better in combat than the combat planes (more AC, more guns, about the same armor). I'm not sure how to fix this.

Also, blimps: in the game, they're too slow to be competitive traders, and in the real world they're really bad at carrying cargo (the whole "lighter than air" requirement). So I'd suggest reducing their cargo, armor, and guns and making them all T1. Their slow speed would be very helpful for newbies wanting to earn flight points while they sleep.

PS. I'd love to see the Scouting Balloon for sale (as tier 0).

_________________
:brownflag: "Proactively providing aid to those in need." :brown:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:11 pm 
Combat Guru

Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:28 pm
Posts: 1924
Faction: Azure League

Offline
Man, watch that Nova go! Started out life as a T1 and has crept ever northwards in each round since. Almost there little buddy!

Aside from that (not really a nitpick, just a historical aside), not a bad list/layout.

The upgrade/stats system as it stands needs some love. As noted above combat planes for whatever reason have both poor sil and AC making them, ironically, the worst choices for combat. This obviously needs fixing but is also not the main thrust of the original post.

_________________
If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough
Image
Proud recipient of the Golden Waffle Award


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:13 pm 
Helpful

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:32 pm
Posts: 1767
Faction: Azure League

Offline
Kalin wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but in the last two rounds it seems that once you hit the middle tiers, the trade planes do better in combat than the combat planes (more AC, more guns, about the same armor). I'm not sure how to fix this.

I'd start with restoring the higher AC to the combat planes, rather than the traders, and putting the highest on CTs. Then I'd give the combat planes interesting arcs, instead of only boring front guns (but still all hefty front guns). Let the combat planes also be the only ones not heavily ammo-bound.

But that's all number and arc tweaking, once you've got the six-class system restored. With general approval of the design the next step would be just such a system of tweaks.

Kalin wrote:
Also, blimps: in the game, they're too slow to be competitive traders, and in the real world they're really bad at carrying cargo (the whole "lighter than air" requirement). So I'd suggest reducing their cargo, armor, and guns and making them all T1. Their slow speed would be very helpful for newbies wanting to earn flight points while they sleep.

That's an interesting proposal. I don't think it has much bearing on the Bismarck -- that one's not about cargo, it's about sitting in one place and killing anything dumb enough to walk up to you. The last word in blockades.

I'm loath to expose newbies to the Leviathan: it is of necessity extremely slow. Not only does this impede many playstyles, but by the time somebody finds out, they could be many hours away from the nearest skyland.

In theory the principal advantage of the airships is their superlative range. In practice, 2.5 balance numbers mean speed always wins out over range. The map could be redesigned to address this issue.

Also remember our airships aren't constrained to the performance of real-world airships, because ours can derive their lift from skystone.

Quote:
PS. I'd love to see the Scouting Balloon for sale (as tier 0).

Place it in the FL2-3 reaches where newbies can't accidentally buy it, and use its superlative range to enable large sequence breaks to parts of the map you couldn't reach before? Not sure how this interacts with Flight License.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:13 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:49 pm
Posts: 779
Faction: Azure League

Offline
Armor (ie damage reduction/armor class) counters sil+sprite+maneuver. It protects the plane when it can't avoid fire. Physically bulky planes should have more of it. An unmodified Avenger or Hades is presently a deathtrap. But with too much, combat becomes very boring. 12 points is definitely enough for a plane at 30 sil, 19 points at 50 sil is excessive. Even the stock 10 points on a KingFisher with 130 sil is sufficient. Further, at 50 sil and above, planes become vulnerable to armor-cutting howitzers. All this means that armor (damage reduction) should be kept at moderate levels. The airships and traders feel fine as they are, but boost some combat and upgrade planes to around 7 points. Bring Steel down to +7.

Health (armor) feels pretty good as it is.

Our present arcs could use some work. Tailguns and diagonal guns are fun to play with, most of the planes used to have more armament options, and those were good. But I like the way our current arcs pay more attention to the art.

The Barashiki would excel with its intended stats. The Ceta and Mantis would be great if they stopped pretending to be performance planes and bulked up more. The airships could stand a little more speed, I don't believe a 250kph Leviathan would harm the game. The airships could also gain a lot more range and cut more corners. Everyone's cargo needs to come down at high tiers (Archon has already stated this much). Everyone's ammo needs to go up at high tiers.

_________________
Pilot-in-Command, Our Chief Export Is Violence III
Incarnation of Industry
Angels' wings are icing over, McDonnell Douglas olive drab. They bear the names of our sweethearts, and the captain smiles, as we crash.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:38 am 
Outside

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:38 pm
Posts: 18
Faction: Flight School
Offline
Potential tweaks to this layout: sticking all the Upgrade planes in the higher tiers, as traditionally Upgrade planes don't perform well until there's enough stuff to upgrade them with. A couple of swaps within the lines would probably be okay, too; I wouldn't object too much if the Loki and the Nova switched places, say, or Mantis and the Bolo.

I'd also prefer if this thread was used to discuss the layout, and another thread was created to discuss tweaks to individual planes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:35 pm 
Moostro

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:56 am
Posts: 795
Location: Vancouver, WA
Faction: Flight School
Offline
Kalin wrote:
Also, blimps: in the game, they're too slow to be competitive traders, and in the real world they're really bad at carrying cargo (the whole "lighter than air" requirement). So I'd suggest reducing their cargo, armor, and guns and making them all T1. Their slow speed would be very helpful for newbies wanting to earn flight points while they sleep.


In general use, it's fine to mis-label the skyrates vessels as blimps, but in a specific focus such as this, realize that they are not blimps (except for the balloon NPC) but in fact dirigibles, also known as airships. (A blimp is a dirigible without a rigid structure, basically balloons, all of the player airships have rigid structural components, even the levi.)

Although blimps aren't particularly useful for cargo as their lack of reinforcement make them non-viable [that anyone has found] due to the lack of structure for form and speed, dirigibles have been proven to be quite capable of cargo capacity and even heavy lifting, and dirigibles can be built to fly heavier-than-air. The sheer size of the levi and the fact that all power is obviously devoted to capacity rather than motion make for a fairly acceptable realism given some of the special materials for lighter-than-air capacity within the skyrates universe for sure. But it starts with a very realistic capability in even our world.

The recent effort at producing a viable commercial airship business has some very good examples:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/aeroscraft.htm
http://www.aeroscraft.com/

_________________
Senator nehp
http://skyrates.zosimple.net


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:17 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:49 pm
Posts: 779
Faction: Azure League

Offline
Swaps:

Barashiki and Lancaster-- Lancaster looks faster and more fragile. Barashiki could pass as a pure combat plane, if it wanted to.

Mantis and Bolo-- I just like the Mantis a lot better. It looks faster and crazier.

Havoc and Tbolt-- Everyone loves the Havoc. Incredible looks and far better handling+sil make this a superior T9 candidate.

Chapparal and Thor-- The Thor shares a lot with the Loki. The Chapparal shares a lot with the Valk. It seems odd that they're so different in tiers and type. Trivia: the Thor is built from Halifax parts, the Loki from Cyclops parts.

_________________
Pilot-in-Command, Our Chief Export Is Violence III
Incarnation of Industry
Angels' wings are icing over, McDonnell Douglas olive drab. They bear the names of our sweethearts, and the captain smiles, as we crash.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:29 am 
Mentor

Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:43 am
Posts: 233
Location: Flying overhead. Wheeeee!
Faction: Jade Hand

Offline
This thread receives Marcus Cunningham's seal of unquestioned support

_________________
From the mobile desk of:

Chancellor Marcus Cunningham
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:02 pm
Posts: 673
Faction: Flight School
Offline
I think this is awesome, and I barely even play anymore. :thumbs:

_________________
Former Flight School Faculty
Failed Incarnation of Speech
Nihil aliud scit necessitas quam vincere.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:44 pm 
Dev Eyepatch

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:32 am
Posts: 1040
Faction: Flight School
Offline
With 2.6 looming around the corner, I would like to boot this thread up top again. Please please please, if we can have any change in 2.6, let it be THIS.

_________________
Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to. What we do in life, echoes in eternity.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:09 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:55 pm
Posts: 75
Faction: Azure League

Offline
hmmm I didn't see the spectre in there anywhere... Oh and I love the idea of the havoc being either T 8 or 9 but that's just me


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:52 pm 
Helpful

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:32 pm
Posts: 1767
Faction: Azure League

Offline
Spectre is 9PT.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skyrates Retiering
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:55 pm 
Cinco de Mayo 2014

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:46 am
Posts: 100
Location: Flying.
Faction: Crimson Armada

Offline
One day, the Leviathan can be an upgrade plane.
Don't worry, Levi! You'll finally get what you deserve, with time. :love:

~ :red:



Edit: Also, I want new arcs on some planes. (Primarily the Valk, MkII, Mantis, Hades, BOLO, VENG, and maybe the Bismarck.)
New thread, anyone? :grin:

_________________
ILC Lieutenant Tilde G. Pilcrow of the Crimson Empire
Tilde Pilcrow knows about Dedication. Do you?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group